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370 points sillypuddy | 41 comments | | HN request time: 1.857s | source | bottom
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nodesocket ◴[] No.16407550[source]
I recently moved (fled) from downtown San Francisco to Nashville TN and couldn't be happier. I lived in SF for over 5 years, and there is absolutely a mass exodus of people and engineers leaving the bay area because of extreme ideology, hypocrisy, constant outrage, and the echo chamber that engulfs everything. Downtown San Francisco is a great place to visit for a few days but no place to start and raise a family.
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1. ryanwaggoner ◴[] No.16407706[source]
See, and I left NYC for Nashville in 2015, and I’m moving back to NYC next week. Nashville itself is pretty purple, but the ideology of the south is just as homogeneous as SF, and I find it much, much more offensive (Roy Moore).

There is not a (net) mass exodus from the Bay Area, hence the ridiculous prices. I moved to SF in 2006 and there were always people claiming it was on the verge of collapse because everyone was fed up with the high prices and crowding and was fleeing. Funny to see that nothing has changed.

“No one goes to that bar anymore, it’s too crowded!”

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2. Barrin92 ◴[] No.16407745[source]
>but the ideology of the south is just as homogeneous as SF

this is an interesting asymmetry I've noticed too. There are countless of places where salt of the earth Americana is the de facto monoculture.

If I'd go there and try to create a liberal-hippie space for myself they'd probably flip me the finger and tell me that's not the local way of life, and somehow everybody seems to agree that this is perfectly fine.

Yet when people in the valley or in a big city share a common culture they somehow have to defend themselves and painstakingly carve out a space for Peter Thiel et al. Why is that? If he doesn't like California's culture Thiel can move, end of story. Why do we have to treat him like a wounded deer?

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3. muninn_ ◴[] No.16407797[source]
Well, because they want to have their cake and eat it too. "Everybody has a voice, we're accepting of all cultures, everybody is welcome" etc.. until they aren't.

And believe it or not, people in the south have to (from their point of view) put up with "the liberals" too - similar to people in SF or wherever.

Frankly, what is interesting here is that instead of the United States becoming more culturally similar with the advent of planes, mobile phones, and what have you it would appear, at least on the surface, that we're becoming more different. I live in the Midwest and when I hear somebody from Vancouver saying that explaining something to someone automatically is "mansplaining" and "placing an emotional burden" on that person I find that just as idiotic and incompatible with my way of life as some bible-thumping anti-climate change person from Mississippi. Now, both of these are of course generalizations, but the most pervasive noise, if you will, is this instead of the most likely interaction I would have with most people which is just a hey how are you, thanks, yes I like XYZ as well.

What we need to do is police the most radical people if we want the United States to be a united country. If we'd rather break it up or something then that's a different story.

4. nodesocket ◴[] No.16407798[source]
Nashville as you know is actually pretty liberal, but the biggest difference is that people here live their lives, are friendly to others, and that southern charm is a real thing. People in San Francisco are always so outraged and angry (mainly since Trump took office) and the media constantly feeds them things to be outraged about that they are perpetually angry. People in Nashville for the most part don't let politics engulf and polarize them (I'd even say radicalize some) like the bay area.
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5. chillwaves ◴[] No.16407854[source]
The media "feeds" us stuff to be outraged about?

You mean factually reporting the news? There is real and severe damage that is happening to our country and our standing in the world. The regressive politics will have consequences.

Even if you are a fan of Trump's policies, the White House is chaos, we essentially do not have a president. Imagine a real crisis hitting, and what this White House would do.

It's incredible how insulting portions are at the population that they think the very real harm (this is not normal) is just some kind of media sensation. I think you are confusing the real current administration with a season of the apprentice that Trump hosted.

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6. saget ◴[] No.16407857[source]
They key difference between Nashville and SV is Nashville doesn't claim to be anything but what's it is. SV culture claims to be inclusive and value diversity of thought. However, plenty of people experience exactly the opposite of this and that makes people feel lied to. Eventually the true SV culture will become more understood but until then I can understand people's frustrations
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7. nodesocket ◴[] No.16407908{3}[source]
The fact that you can't see that it's in the media's best interest (manily to stay in business) to push outrage and sensational headlines and enable constant outrage is surprising. Facebook also further reinforces the outrage (on both sides) again for huge profits. Outrage sells, and business is a booming.
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8. tzahola ◴[] No.16407924{3}[source]
Ironically, your post perfectly illustrates his/her point.
9. saget ◴[] No.16407935{3}[source]
You just proved his point. You replied as an outraged person that is angry about the Trump presidency. It's perfectly ok to go about your life without mentioning Trump in half of your conversations. For the average person, there's nothing that can really be done until the next election. You can be angry about Trump but don't go around thinking the only correct way to life is being outraged about it.
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10. BenSahar ◴[] No.16407945[source]
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people just don't care enough about those places.

No one cares about Huntsville, AL and most high-profile people would not reside there, so no one hears about any of this bubble behavior from the other side.

The most important cities (culturally and economically) are, at least, left-leaning. So, you'll only hear about conservatives being rejected by the "liberals" in {city}.

I grew up in a conservative town. Personal experience says the bubble on that side is arguably worse and more violent. Being openly gay or not-white or not-Christian (or accepting of those things) in my hometown was a good way to end up harassed and possibly assaulted on a regular basis.

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11. ryanwaggoner ◴[] No.16407951[source]
We do not live in the same Nashville.

Not only is it not “pretty liberal” by any definition, people here aren’t any less political than people on the coasts, and they don’t “live their lives” any more, whatever that even means.

However, people here are less angry about Trump and the Republicans because they’re much more likely to have voted for him and support what he’s doing. They were plenty angry when Obama was in office.

Also, “southern charm” is real and nice at first, but in my experience it’s actually pretty shallow, cheap, and discriminatory. It’s mainly surface-level and primarily extended to non-poor white Christian conservatives. Minorities, immigrants, gays, liberals, non-Christians, and poor people are treated differently.

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12. ryanwaggoner ◴[] No.16408040{4}[source]
Give me a break. They didn’t bring up Trump, the person they’re responding to did. And it’s intellectually dishonest to claim that you can’t be outraged no matter what level of harm or danger or betrayal of your values is occurring, or that means you’re a media puppet.

The better question is: why aren’t you outraged like so many others?

And if the answer is that you don’t care or you agree with the policies in question, then perhaps the outraged people should justifiably ignore your condemnation of their outrage.

It’s ridiculous for me to claim that all conservatives were only anti-Obama’s policies because the right-leaning media whipped them into a frenzy, and it’s just as unfair and intellectually dishonest to do that to the left today.

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13. evgen ◴[] No.16408055{4}[source]
Maybe they are just not oblivious to the fact that there is a lot to be outraged about? Sometimes the outrage is not manufactured but simply a response to lies and criminal behavior in the halls of power.
14. alexqgb ◴[] No.16408155{3}[source]
The most important cities (culturally and economically) are, at least, left-leaning.

That's not a coincidence. It's a direct product of cosmopolitanism. The cities that represent it most clearly are its capitals. Like any working system, it has rules. If you want the benefits, you need to play be the rules. If you don't, you're free to leave. Goodness knows your apartment won't go unfilled for long.

15. ◴[] No.16408209[source]
16. dang ◴[] No.16408322{3}[source]
Please don't go into political battle mode on HN. If you do that, so will others, and then we'll have a big war, the people who don't want this will leave, and the site will go down the drain. If we're to keep HN as a place for relatively (emphasis on relatively) thoughtful discussion, we're all responsible not to let this happen.

The political issues are important, of course. Arguably more important than other topics. That's one reason why the above is the case.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

17. heurist ◴[] No.16408325{3}[source]
My perspective as someone not living in California: I imagine that if there is increasing pushback against conservative values it is because the liberal ideology has been suppressed across most of the country and more pressure is being released in the few places where it is still politically preferable. If democrats sweep in the next few years (I am not so sure that will happen) then I also imagine the atmosphere in SV will cool down a bit. However, the mix of capital and somewhat radical liberal politics increase the odds of strange outcomes.

The real problem is increasing polarization of the Congress since Gingrich. We are going to keep flipping back and forth between Republican domination and Democrat domination rather than slight right majority and slight left majority with great debates and comprises until some key issues with the electoral process and congressional procedure are fixed.

I think the end result is an overhaul and optimization of government by sensible, human-oriented technologists but that is a few decades and several bitcoin bubbles away.

18. ryanwaggoner ◴[] No.16408349{3}[source]
Agreed. It’s bizarre to see this argument from people in places that have historically (and even currently) been epicenters of open hostility, harassment, and violence against “the other”, that the real injustice in our society is that too many people in liberal enclaves have disdain for conservative values.
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19. ordinaryradical ◴[] No.16408392{4}[source]
You're making it zero sum but it's not. It's possible to have a media that profits off outrage but to simultaneously have outrageous things happening to our the most important institutions.

The media did not create deported children, paid off porn stars, and collusion with foreign governments. So let's not pretend this is on them entirely.

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20. rainbowmverse ◴[] No.16408486{3}[source]
>> Imagine a real crisis hitting, and what this White House would do.

Like, for example, the flu season becoming a crisis because key medical manufacturers were devastated by a hurricane and found limited support from a government that barely realizes Puerto Rico is part of the US, much less that its industries are so essential.

21. mrgordon ◴[] No.16408618{3}[source]
You can support diversity of thought and still be against billionaires who shut down media outlets and make additional billions off government surveillance and pervasive tracking of individuals (read: minorities)
replies(1): >>16409437 #
22. kodablah ◴[] No.16408685{3}[source]
> Not only is it not “pretty liberal” by any definition

Any definition? I'm not from there, but if you use votes for liberal candidates as a basis, they are pretty liberal [0]. That's at least one definition, whether or not it's yours. I could understand arguing nuance, but to say it isn't pretty liberal by any definition appears incorrect.

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville,_Tennessee#Politics

23. closeparen ◴[] No.16408762{3}[source]
Where has SV claimed to be tolerant of conservative thought? The suggestion that it claims to or ought to welcome racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-welfare-state politics did not appear to arrive on the scene until the fallout of the Damore memo.
replies(1): >>16409085 #
24. jnbiche ◴[] No.16408847{3}[source]
> SV culture claims to be inclusive and value diversity of thought

I don't see many people in SV culture claiming to value "diversity of thought". They value diversity of culture, races, sexual identities, etc. But not thought (unfortunately).

That said, other posters are 100% correct when they write that rural America is just as intolerant, only in the other direction. And you don't see many people moving to those areas and attacking their lack of thought diversity (probably because they'd get shunned, at best, or shot, at worst).

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25. jnbiche ◴[] No.16408869{3}[source]
Davidson County voted for Clinton in 2016 by an almost 2-to-1 margin. Almost all heavily urban areas are pretty to very liberal, regardless of whether they're in the South or elsewhere.
26. stevenwoo ◴[] No.16408929{4}[source]
It may be bizarre but it's now a standard tactic - to claim victimhood in order to justify all manner of behavior, ala Fox News and the supposed war on Christmas to support the viewpoint that Christians are under siege in the USA, or that being outed if one wants to discriminate based on gender/sexuality (because of one's religious beliefs like that county clerk who refused to recognize same sex marriage) is unfairly targeting the religious.
27. Fins ◴[] No.16409062{3}[source]
To be fair, it was not the salt of the Earth Middle America rioting in Berkeley because they dared to invite Coulter or Milo to speak.

And you know, Roy Moore lost elections. How many Republicans did SFBA send to Washington lately?

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28. Fins ◴[] No.16409085{4}[source]
>racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-welfare-state politics

This is not exactly what "conservative thought" is, but the conflation does nicely demonstrate SV's toxic mix of ignorance and intolerance.

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29. BenSahar ◴[] No.16409267{4}[source]
Are you so sure about the rioting in Berkley? It takes two to tango.
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30. closeparen ◴[] No.16409296{5}[source]
You'll find plenty of support for disruption of burdensome and anti-consumer regulatory regimes (see: ridesharing), a mix of free traders and protectionists, opponents of price controls, advocates to unleash private capital to fix societal problems (see: YIMBYs), advocates to reduce the administrative burden of redistribution schemes (see: UBI), and a number of other center-right positions.

What gets you in trouble here is talking about pro-life family values, personal responsibility, and how marginalized groups who are over/under represented in certain outcomes must deserve it.

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31. Trundle ◴[] No.16409334{4}[source]
They might not directly claim to value diversity of thought, however accusations of "bigotry" seem to me to be the most common insult/label applied by progressives to non-progressives, possibly behind only "Nazi".

If someone is using "intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself" as an insult, it only makes sense to assume they are claiming that they are different.

32. filoleg ◴[] No.16409437{4}[source]
How about billionaires who rightfully sue publications that publicly reveal their sexual identity (without permission) in the context that can put the person's life in danger (Thiel visiting Saudi Arabia at the time)? What about publications being sued for publicly releasing private sex tapes of people without their permission and refusing to take them down at the request?
33. Barrin92 ◴[] No.16409470{5}[source]
Thiel is pretty deep into the 'neoreactionary' subculture with a distinct anti-democratic and racist bent. You're right to say that this isn't exactly conservative thought, but it is the sort of thought that comes from the people who are criticising the valley from the inside. The Curtis Yarvin types seem to be involved in the newest criticism against 'valley liberalism' more than genuinely conservative groups.

I've never seen much opposition to your run off the mill conservatism you find anywhere in the business world.

replies(1): >>16410669 #
34. sciencesage ◴[] No.16409483{5}[source]
The person you're replying to never said you can't be outraged. They just said being outraged isn't the only valid course of action. They never even said they weren't outrage, he/she never gave an opinion on the president.

Can we please stop it with these political comments made to provoke instead of discuss? If you want to vent your anger go post on reddit.

35. dictum ◴[] No.16409547{5}[source]
The media did not create the situations you listed, but it did create a lot of "get a load of this guy" pieces about him exactly when he wanted them most: when he was the kooky loudmouth unlikely to be nominated.
36. Fins ◴[] No.16410543{6}[source]
When it comes to really big money principles often go right out the window...

There might be some diversity of economic matterts; depends on whether you make money on walking through the outer fringes of legality (e.g. AirBnB) or not. On social issues that you mention SV is far more of an echo chamber.

Although I do wonder where you're getting the idea about groups that "deserve it". Personal responsibility, vs. identity politics seems to be a rather large dividing line between liberals and conservatives, and "deserve it" as applied to groups is a liberal belief, not conservative.

37. Fins ◴[] No.16410568{5}[source]
You don't need two to break store windows.

And as silly and ignorant as Coulter is, at the moment when one starts saying that she does not have a right to speak here, one signs off on his moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

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38. astura ◴[] No.16410633{3}[source]
>“southern charm” is real and nice at first, but in my experience it’s actually pretty shallow, cheap, and discriminatory.

Ohhhhh yeah.

I have to admit I have a limited amount of personal experience with the South, but this is both the impression I have from my limited experience and what people who grew up in the South but live in the Northeast now tell me from their experiences.

Or as someone who grew up in Louisiana told me "'Southern Hospitality' and hospitality anywhere else is the same except that outside the South they don't feel the need to brag about it and also offer it to people that aren't white."

It's just sooooooo so so so shallow, some of the stuff I hear Southerners brag about I'm thinking, in my head, "well literally anyone I know would do that but that so I'm not impressed and, nobody would feel the need to brag about it later."

I just hate how shallow and insincere it is dressed up in in the thin veil of sincerity

39. Fins ◴[] No.16410669{6}[source]
He well might be, although the accusations of racism all seem to point at some very anciuent and rather vague hearsay.

Economically SV may not be too far from the mainstream, because really, if you drive away not only Thiel but the rest of VCs, who's gonna throw millions on your new world-changing blockchain crowdsourced augmented-reality chat app?!

Socially, though, SV positions itself far, far left of not only mainstream, but even of the outer fringes of common sense. Which comes out quite ironic in the end, e.g. when you look at tyhe stuff in Damore's lawsuit (the ones still proceeding) vs. the fact that Google is simultaneously being sued for underpaying women.

40. BenSahar ◴[] No.16416817{6}[source]
We must be referring to different riots.

I was referring to the one where morons from both sides decided to show up with weapons and assault each other.

replies(1): >>16417226 #
41. Fins ◴[] No.16417226{7}[source]
Possible. When Berkeley invited Milo to speak, antifa showed up first and broke quite a few windows, same way antiglobalists reliably start riots anywhere G-7 meets. [0]

After that alt-right brought in their own thugs as well, which might be the ones you're referrring to.

In the antifa vs. alt-right contest both sides get a dishonourable second place.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests