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668 points wildmusings | 54 comments | | HN request time: 2.031s | source | bottom
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JorgeGT ◴[] No.13027099[source]
And without an "edited" mark, which means that any comment of any user can be covertly modified by an admin. Very concerning since Reddit comments have provoked even Congress hearings: http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/296680-house-pan...
replies(7): >>13027119 #>>13027125 #>>13027136 #>>13027240 #>>13027734 #>>13028391 #>>13033721 #
wvenable ◴[] No.13027119[source]
The fact is anything digital can be modified this way; it's probably good that it happens and there are public examples so people learn not to trust it.
replies(2): >>13027197 #>>13027891 #
1. ErikAugust ◴[] No.13027197[source]
Would be good to have some distributed model (like Bitcoin, etc.) for message platforms like Reddit?
replies(10): >>13027216 #>>13027239 #>>13027257 #>>13027396 #>>13027457 #>>13027930 #>>13028055 #>>13030203 #>>13030416 #>>13030833 #
2. arcticfox ◴[] No.13027216[source]
I feel like Telegram will release something like this at some point...at least I'm hoping so!
replies(1): >>13030466 #
3. reddytowns ◴[] No.13027239[source]
Take a look at steem.io if you are interested in such a thing. As a disclaimer, I would not recommend investing much money in it.
4. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13027257[source]
Yeah. That would be great. I'd go so far as to say that it would be a really Useful network. If you catch my drift.
replies(5): >>13027287 #>>13027292 #>>13027317 #>>13027363 #>>13027551 #
5. rjbwork ◴[] No.13027287[source]
Please, tell me more about this wonderful futuristic technology.
replies(2): >>13027337 #>>13027827 #
6. Ericson2314 ◴[] No.13027292[source]
Thank you for this. Learn your history, kids!
replies(1): >>13027307 #
7. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13027307{3}[source]
...I am a kid. Well, a highschooler at least.
replies(2): >>13029705 #>>13031208 #
8. ErikAugust ◴[] No.13027317[source]
Usenet, I get it. ;) Maybe there's a sweet spot somewhere between the Facebooks and models like Usenet.
replies(1): >>13027913 #
9. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13027337{3}[source]
Well, you see, there used to be a network coexistant with the internet, backed by UUCP, because Unix didn't have internet support yet (among other reasons).

And then there were these guys called Tom and Steve. And they wrote Usenet. And all was well until September fell. And then the usenet gradually faded into obscurity, as users moved towards walled gardens, and away from netnews. Some of these users were weeaboos: This is how the -chans made their way here from Japan.

replies(2): >>13027394 #>>13029692 #
10. DonHopkins ◴[] No.13027363[source]
It might even develop its own alt.right community.
replies(1): >>13027383 #
11. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13027383{3}[source]
Naturally.

I mean, where else would the right-leaning Anarchists, Lunatics, and Terrorists hang out?

replies(4): >>13027410 #>>13027418 #>>13027856 #>>13029374 #
12. ChuckMcM ◴[] No.13027394{4}[source]
Awesome! that totally reads like a future history of post apocalyptic script kiddy explaining the current state of the world.

Usenet was created because "networks" were expensive and "fax lines" were cheap. If you did it correctly machine A could call machine B in its local calling zone which could call machine C in its local calling zone and a message could go from A!B!C!user without incurring any long distance charges (aka "free").

Because you would lose your news feed if you pissed people off, spam was low because no admin would tolerate one of their users putting their system at risk of disconnection.

When networks because "free" and anyone could talk to anyone, there was no impediment to spam and no way to scale, and much of the infrastructure collapsed on itself.

That said, there is absolutely nothing preventing anyone from creating their own peer to peer messaging network. They could re-use the netnews code or write their own with a bit more security built in. The argument to that is "but hey no one will use it." to which you say "Who cares? My friends and I will use it." and since it is free and it is just you and your friends it will be fun and enjoyable. And if you're very unlucky everyone will join you.

replies(2): >>13027448 #>>13027781 #
13. ◴[] No.13027396[source]
14. noir_lord ◴[] No.13027410{4}[source]
Congress?
15. DonHopkins ◴[] No.13027418{4}[source]
alt.religion.scientology of course.
replies(1): >>13028854 #
16. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13027448{5}[source]
It reads like that in part because I was aiming for that vibe (something along the lines of http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~ravenben/humor/historyofnet, or https://www.astro.umd.edu/~avondale/extra/Humor/ComputerHumo...). But also because my knowledge of Usenet history is very limited. So thanks for the crash course.
17. MK999 ◴[] No.13027457[source]
http://twister.net.co/ is a twitter clone in bitcoin, so not a reddit clone. I've not seen a reddit clone yet.
replies(1): >>13028637 #
18. ◴[] No.13027551[source]
19. StavrosK ◴[] No.13027781{5}[source]
> And if you're very unlucky everyone will join you.

That last line was very poignant.

replies(1): >>13029418 #
20. sonofgod ◴[] No.13027827{3}[source]
If you're wanting to explore the history of messaging, olduse.net has a 30-year delayed live newsfeed...

Mostly I learnt that just about nothing has changed...

replies(1): >>13028410 #
21. koolba ◴[] No.13027856{4}[source]
HN?
replies(1): >>13028266 #
22. raattgift ◴[] No.13027913{3}[source]
You could implement the facebooks with USENET.

Each user gets his or her own newsfroup subhierarchy which anyone may subscribe, cache, archive, or distribute.

Postings are signed by the user, where the signature points to a parent, Merkle-tree style. A valid posting must encrypt its Message-Id and Newsgroups header lines with the newsgroup's posting-user's private key, and with half of a key shared with the hierarchical parent newsgroup's owner set out in e.g. the cmsg newgroup message and follow-ups to it.

Postings may be signed cleartext or signed ciphertext with the decrypt key encrypted on the public keys of eligible readers.

Postings may be dropped (and should not be presented by a reader UA) if a signature trace upwards, potentially to the root of the hierarchy -- there may be many hierarchies, but each would have unique root newsgroup -- fails.

Posting would work like moderated newsgroups, with the "moderator" being whoever posseses the valid signing information, and any unmoderated postings going ignored.

The equivalent of posting on a friend's wall would involve either posting into a subgroup of the friend's primary newsgroup for which the posting-friend has the appropriate signing information, or goes into a dropbox subgroup encrypted on the wall owner's public key, which the wall owner should monitor, and from which the wall owner could sign-and-promote postings onto her or his own wall or some other non-dropbox subgroup.

There are similar drawbacks to USENET: once posted, a message cannot be unposted or edited reliably. Postings may be lost.

Additionally, postings might not be permanently secret. Posting and reading credentials may be lost or stolen. Legitimate readers might repost information they shouldn't. None of these are too different from the facebooks.

The bright side is that this could be started today with just UA work, using the existing USENET transfer-and-storage systems. Newsgroup creation and policies on expiration and peer-and-downstream transferring would need to be made more scalable; the line about "cmsg newgroup" exposes the problem even in the hundreds of users of USEFACE, let alone several orders of magnitude more newsgroups than exist today.

However, there aren't obvious ultimate scaling limits thanks to hierarchicalization; the hardest part is probably organizing where UAs will get their NNTP reader service from -- it's unlikely to be just one reader that happens to subscribe to all USEFACE hierarchies and stores all postings indefinitely. This was already a problem for USENET, although there are various partial solutions that already exist.

replies(1): >>13030462 #
23. RubyPinch ◴[] No.13027930[source]
there is already a system in place to have verified comments

OpenPGP works for near anything

replies(1): >>13028945 #
24. TD-Linux ◴[] No.13028055[source]
No need. Simple digital signatures of comments (and of their parents) would go a long way here.
25. ethbro ◴[] No.13028266{5}[source]
Make Hacking Great Again
26. protomyth ◴[] No.13028410{4}[source]
As a nice supplement the Conference issue of Byte is on the Internet Archive. The issue has a painting of a ribbon cable on the cover.
replies(1): >>13030938 #
27. moridin007 ◴[] No.13028637[source]
steemit.com?
replies(1): >>13030058 #
28. Senji ◴[] No.13028854{5}[source]
alt.chan.4.pol
29. Nadya ◴[] No.13028945[source]

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA256
    
    But it does get annoying to sign every comment.
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    
    wsBcBAEBCAAQBQJYNp4wCRCuaVAPm2QoyQAAr8sIAHQaE5B+HYdCz6XBrysdHzr4
    ykR81zq5TXoMR+/f9UwuSi2I4881H4pEWsN9Fa0/qnpK/asNk+grEaMtB74DOg3p
    8Uy3lUvlVglj9QTPZ9Hf90e3HHLOW2OonXitYaf1xPoczIO8NgwwebDDZIVohU4u
    4EySOfgbP+VjwGbmtUJFeh0BifGN6b3DtKQrgVziWyumyK3WL9oz1kDAr4s24mCr
    227ty9d+7kwtYhaszkM8HwGnstZaNSan1jpVkmsLRMSr4JqNFyNWalN5LU85w2WV
    zwY0n8mA7tHnrCd+mWcjp845I8gGn7NoFPHXhG2m+yU/f1LDsyXUib5hut+iduQ=
    =jcN5
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
replies(1): >>13030072 #
30. SSLy ◴[] No.13029374{4}[source]
Um, conflating anarcho-capitalists with alt-right is passe. https://fee.org/articles/five-differences-between-the-alt-ri...
replies(1): >>13029412 #
31. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13029412{5}[source]
...You didn't get it.
replies(1): >>13031531 #
32. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13029418{6}[source]
But true.

I sure as heck hope that everyone doesn't join me in my communities: the magic would go away.

33. Jaruzel ◴[] No.13029692{4}[source]
> And all was well until September fell.

Oh, how I pine for the days before the eternal September.

Even Green Day got sad about it.

replies(1): >>13031016 #
34. Jaruzel ◴[] No.13029705{4}[source]
Kudos to you. If only other high schoolers knew the history of tech they use, we (us 40+ somethings) would not be fearing for our future.
35. ◴[] No.13030058{3}[source]
36. RubyPinch ◴[] No.13030072{3}[source]
I do think relegating it to

    ${message}
    
        ${message sig metadata}
        ${message sig}
could be done easily enough, and would look okay too. and then allow people to install an extension to verify automatically or the such
replies(1): >>13034189 #
37. dorfsmay ◴[] No.13030203[source]
So Usenet?
38. Natanael_L ◴[] No.13030416[source]
Absolutely!

Here's my sketch for a system like that;

https://roamingaroundatrandom.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/a-dec...

39. Natanael_L ◴[] No.13030462{4}[source]
Not entitled different from my own sketch: https://roamingaroundatrandom.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/a-dec...

The way I'm imagining it, you can both use server based and P2P based distribution. You can federate across servers, have channels/rooms with filters / blacklists set by the moderators. You can have one-time user keys and PFS algorithms, with optional support for users later claiming authorship if they preserved their old keys. And everything would be timestamped using transparency logs or a blockchain. Edits are diff messages.

40. Natanael_L ◴[] No.13030466[source]
Matrix.org will probably get there first
41. eternalban ◴[] No.13030833[source]
Github.com can't modify your commit records without modifying top level (observable) artifacts.
42. protomyth ◴[] No.13030938{5}[source]
Since I'm off the road here is the link https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1985-12

Byte Magazine Volume 10 Number 13 December 1985 Computer Conferencing

replies(1): >>13031031 #
43. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13031016{5}[source]
Some sites try to pretend that it didn't happen. If they're small enough, it can even kind of work, like lainchan.

>Even Green Day got sad about it.

When I heard that song, I noticed how well the lyrics fit:

>Summer has come and passed, the innocence can never last,

The eternal September was the end of innocence for the internet

>Here comes the rain again, falling from the stars,

>Drenched in my pain again, becoming who we are

As painful as September was was, it was instrumental in making the internet and the internet culture what it is today.

>As my memory rests, but never forget what I lost

Many still feel the loss that was September distinctly. I myself wasn't even around, but I still feel it.

44. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13031031{6}[source]
Ah, Byte. There's nothing like it, and there probably never will be. Where else could you find circuit diagrams, assembly listings, and explorations of HLLs, next to all kinds other computer-related explorations?

It has a kind of magic to it, which I can't find in any other magazine to this day.

replies(1): >>13033098 #
45. Ericson2314 ◴[] No.13031208{4}[source]
Yeah props to you, whatever your age! And fwiw I'm too young to have used the Usenet in its prime.

"<Imperative>, kids" is just an ideom. The proverbial kid would be somebody here that hasn't heard of the Usenet or didn't make the connection—not you.

replies(1): >>13031570 #
46. SSLy ◴[] No.13031531{6}[source]
No, I did not. Mind explaining?
replies(2): >>13031646 #>>13031766 #
47. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13031570{5}[source]
>"<Imperative>, kids" is just an ideom. The proverbial kid would be somebody here that hasn't heard of the Usenet or didn't make the connection—not you.

Yeah, I know. I felt that it was an entertaining enough juxtaposition that I said it anyways.

48. DonHopkins ◴[] No.13031646{7}[source]
Go to alt.alien.vampire.flonk.fonk.flonk and ask if they are really aliens and what's a flonk.
49. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13031766{7}[source]
Don was talking about alt.right (obviously a play on alt-right: but probably also the alt-right news group, if there is one). However, the standard acronym expansion for the alt hierarchy on the usenet (it actually stands for alternative) is Anarchists, Lunatics, and Terrorists: partly a running gag and partly because alt.* was (and still is) the wild west of the usenet: a lawless wasteland, with the occasional specks of civilization.
replies(1): >>13031798 #
50. DanBC ◴[] No.13031798{8}[source]
> partly because alt.* was (and still is) the wild west of the usenet: a lawless wasteland, with the occasional specks of civilization.

...and even that was too restricted for some people, which is one of the reasons free.* was set up.

http://wiki.killfile.org/projects/usenet/faqs/free/

replies(1): >>13032034 #
51. qwertyuiop924 ◴[] No.13032034{9}[source]
For some people, any restriction is too much. It's the 4chan vs 8chan thing.
52. ddingus ◴[] No.13033098{7}[source]
Seconded.
53. Nadya ◴[] No.13034189{4}[source]
Could you post an actual example? I'm having problems deciphering what that would end up looking like.
replies(1): >>13041922 #
54. RubyPinch ◴[] No.13041922{5}[source]
https://i.imgur.com/60ya7x8.png

I know its considered wrong to mess around with the structure, but this is reversible, looks neater, n' can be hidden (after verification) by third party tools with a simple "is this PGP-like, if yes, delete element" instead of mucking around, splitting arbitrary html