Most active commenters
  • opendais(8)

←back to thread

What I Would Do If I Ran Tarsnap

(www.kalzumeus.com)
801 points tnorthcutt | 18 comments | 03 Apr 14 16:33 UTC | HN request time: 0.838s | source | bottom
Show context
edanm ◴[03 Apr 14 18:22 UTC] No.7524889[source]▶
This is getting a lot of negative reactions. If this causes cperciva not to listen to this post, it will be a Big Tragedy.

A lot of people here are ~saying "maybe cperciva isn't motivated by money". OK. I get that.

Here's the thing - I honestly believe that Tarsnap is the best backup solution. I believe this because I hang around HN, I'm a technologist, and I trust tptacek and patio11, among others, when they say it.

I am right on the edge of someone who would actually use Tarsnap - I'm a geek, but I also run a business, the money it would cost me is less than peanuts (if I could figure out how much it would cost me, that is - see the article). I'm probably not going to use Tarsnap because of a few missing but critical features that patio11 mentioned, like auto-recharging money (do I really need another bullet on my todo list, or to worry about my backups disappearing?).

But there's a whole world of people out there. People who could really, really use Tarsnap. People who have my user data on their systems, and who I wish would use a service as good as Tarsnap. These people will never, ever use Tarsnap, because of all the reasons patio11 mentioned, and because they will never hear of it or know that it's better than everything else.

What I said above has nothing to do with moral philosophy. It is a fact about the world that, if cperciva doesn't play the "marketing game" (or the "make your software useable by normal people" game), less people will use Tarsnap.

And the world will be worse off. Is this a tragedy? Sure. cperciva doesn't owe the world or anyone in it anything. It isn't a moral absolute that giving cperciva more resources, to make Tarsnap that much better, is the right thing to happen.

But I hate to see a whole forum full of people who actually think that what cperciva is doing is somehow more "noble" and less "greedy" because he doesn't care about money. *

* I have no problem with cperciva acting however he wants in this regard, and absolutely do not mean any disrespect. I honestly don't think cperciva owes anyone anything. But I do think that it's an empirical fact that the world will be worse off for less people having used a good backup solution, and I honestly believe that living ina world with more people using Tarsnap, and incidentally cperciva having more money, is a better world. If you really want - donate all that money to GiveWell, and the world will be even better off.

replies(3): >>7525120 #>>7525316 #>>7525846 #
1. opendais ◴[03 Apr 14 18:51 UTC] No.7525120[source]▶
Would you agree the best solution is for cperciva to start a second brand that is purely B2B and more in line with the blog post?

I think the negative reactions stem more from an attraction to the Tarsnap brand as a G2G service combined with cperciva's cavalier attitude toward's increasing his income by charging his customers more. Regardless of patio11's thoughts, the current 'brand' would take a hit by losing the 'geek to geek' luster.

The OP maintains two separate brands for separate products. Maintaining a 'premium B2B' brand for Tarsnap would bypass any negative reaction, I think.

I'm not sure why the majority of the people [OP included] think a single B2B or G2G brand is the 'best option'.

replies(1): >>7525939 #
2. ianstormtaylor ◴[03 Apr 14 19:57 UTC] No.7525939[source]▶
I think a single brand is a better option in this case because it greatly reduces scope, and seeing as it's a one man business scope is the biggest enemy there is. But also because I don't see it as a black and white decision about whether to appeal to geeks or enterprises.

I think patio11 went too far towards the "only appealing to non-geeks" end of the spectrum, partly because he just wanted to show how big of a spectrum there is. It's absolutely possible to have a optimized pricing system, and a well-designed (not talking just visuals) homepage without being anti-geek. For evidence of that just look at Stripe or GitHub. It actually seems like an incredibly rewarding task if cperciva finds the right geek-oriented designer.

replies(2): >>7526118 #>>7526403 #
3. edanm ◴[03 Apr 14 20:11 UTC] No.7526118[source]▶
Github is the perfect example. Very "pro-geek". But can you imagine if they had appealed to only people who are comfortable with the command-line and with no GUI's? Github is in many ways just a nice GUI and good documentation on top of git, making it more accessible for the average programmer.

And does anyone honestly think the world would be better if git was less widespread?

replies(2): >>7526363 #>>7526669 #
4. opendais ◴[03 Apr 14 20:33 UTC] No.7526363{3}[source]▶
Perhaps I'm just strange but I wouldn't pay for GitHub and I am the reason that we went with GitLab at $DAY_JOB since its my responsibility to maintain everything Git.

The majority of my coworkers are GitHub's target audience [programmers that do not really want to truly understand how Git works] and they have no active desire to use GitHub. I'm literally the only person that works here with a GitHub account which I barely use because I run a private instance of GitLab instead.

So, while it is a perfect 'mainstream' example, in your eyes...it is also a prime example that there is a significant market that wouldn't use GitHub professionally.

replies(3): >>7528439 #>>7529612 #>>7530356 #
5. opendais ◴[03 Apr 14 20:37 UTC] No.7526403[source]▶
Perhaps, but realize, that the 'truly paranoid' would not use GitHub's paid offering. They'd have their own private behind the firewalls of an open source product with source code they could examine.

At least in my opinion.

replies(2): >>7529626 #>>7530364 #
6. jfarmer ◴[03 Apr 14 21:05 UTC] No.7526669{3}[source]▶
100%. Tarsnap is like GitHub if it were priced by picodollars per byte in the repository blob.
7. simonw ◴[04 Apr 14 01:11 UTC] No.7528439{4}[source]▶
Just out of interest, why do you think GitHub's target audience are developers who don't want to truly understand git?
replies(2): >>7529485 #>>7532404 #
8. recursive ◴[04 Apr 14 05:30 UTC] No.7529485{5}[source]▶
I'm one of them. For me it's because I made some token efforts before to understand it, and it seemed far more complicated than source control should be. I have very simple needs, and correspondingly don't really have a desire to learn non simple tools.
replies(1): >>7532433 #
9. jboggan ◴[04 Apr 14 06:11 UTC] No.7529612{4}[source]▶
I don't really agree with this characterization of GitHub's target audience. After spending the last 18 months working with a distributed team of ~40 engineers and ~20 bizdev/salesfolk I cannot imagine a suitable replacement for GitHub when it comes to organizing the information surrounding our workflow. I am now in a 2-man startup and it is indispensable for its ticketing and communication features, not to mention helping me figure out when I am most productive. Also, do you realize how great it is for non-coders to "get" GitHub and start using it for critical documents? Iterating through some legal agreements is much clearer when your lawyer/partner now understands what a repo is and how to revert to a previous commit.
replies(1): >>7532549 #
10. pwim ◴[04 Apr 14 06:16 UTC] No.7529626{3}[source]▶
GitHub has an enterprise plan where you can run it behind your firewall.
replies(1): >>7533073 #
11. the_ancient ◴[04 Apr 14 10:18 UTC] No.7530356{4}[source]▶
And there are many enterprises that pay for GitHub Accounts or Private instances of GitHub Software on prem...

Why... Same reason companies pick any other software... Same reason companies pick RHEL over Cent... etc

Support, Security, and outsourced management

If your team has the time to manage your GitLab installation, update it, fix it if/when it breaks, etc. Great. Other organization choose to outsource that to GitLab...

Same thing here with backups... People that want to roll their own inhouse solution would not be TarSnaps target.

replies(1): >>7532493 #
12. the_ancient ◴[04 Apr 14 10:20 UTC] No.7530364{3}[source]▶
https://enterprise.github.com/
13. opendais ◴[04 Apr 14 16:18 UTC] No.7532404{5}[source]▶
Git is as easy to use as scp or rsync from the commandline for most common tasks. So is Tarsnap.

The Tarsnap -> Patio11's Idea is being approximated as equivalent to Git -> GitHub.

So, in this context, the people I've dealt with that would want Patio11's Idea of Tarsnap are people who don't want to take the effort to understand what they are dealing with.

GitHub has a larger audience that has nothing to do with development. Social features, simplifying things for non-developers, etc. but I do not feel that portion of the 'product' is relevant in this context.

The people I know IRL that prefer a GitHub-type interface over doing things with Git via the command line are the type that need me to fix the issues they run into for them. The fact I'm basically git support for other IT folk leads me to that conclusion.

And frankly, I'm not a Git guru. I'm a very, very average software developer who acts as the sysadmin for Dev at $DAY_JOB.

I fully believe other people have different experiences but I've implemented Git workflows at 2 companies now and I've seen a consistent pattern.

Please do understand, I'm not saying they should or need to learn Git. It is better they focus on the domain expertise they bring to the table [e.g. Web Design, Email Design, Data Science]. I'm just saying it is a different audience than Tarsnap's current one.

14. opendais ◴[04 Apr 14 16:21 UTC] No.7532433{6}[source]▶
And if that works for you, you shouldn't learn it. :)

But I think Tarsnap -> Patio11's Idea is like Git -> GitHub. I think there are two separate audiences there with different needs.

15. opendais ◴[04 Apr 14 16:27 UTC] No.7532493{5}[source]▶
Fyi, GitLab and GitHub both provide similar services. One is open source, one is not.

You can buy on premise support from GitLab or GitHub for their respective products.

So, it isn't rolling your own...or even being on your own [unless you choose to be].

The confusion is probably my fault, I'm not the clearest of posters.

16. opendais ◴[04 Apr 14 16:34 UTC] No.7532549{5}[source]▶
That's fine, my comment/explanation could have been clearer.

I was trying to explain that there is two markets for backups/Tarsnap and trying to shoe-horn it into the GitHub comparison led to confusion.

GitHub sounds like it is a SPoF for you is the only reason I'm adding this part of the comment:

If you can't 'imagine' a suitable replacement, I'd try GitLab. They are similar enough I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to replace GitHub in your workflow.

I'm not suggesting you actually replace GitHub, I'm just suggesting you expand your options so you have a backup plan in case GitHub disappears one day.

17. opendais ◴[04 Apr 14 17:49 UTC] No.7533073{4}[source]▶
'with source code they could examine' you seemed to have skipped over?
replies(1): >>7538642 #
18. schneid ◴[05 Apr 14 22:04 UTC] No.7538642{5}[source]▶
Well, obviously it's not open source, but GH Enterprise is delivered as a running Ruby app, so you can take a look. Of course the TOS says you shouldn't read or reverse engineer or whatever.

But I know people fix bugs that GitHub won't fix in their enterprise product by patching the Ruby source after each new update.