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801 points tnorthcutt | 30 comments | | HN request time: 1.063s | source | bottom
1. rsync ◴[] No.7524164[source]
As someone who knows a little something about this business, and who has been excited and enthusiastic about tarsnap from day one, I hope Colin pays no attention to what you have written and continues to provide his service (note, I didn't say "run his business") just as he has.

I want to live in a world where tarsnap is sold for picodollars.

replies(4): >>7524205 #>>7524353 #>>7524595 #>>7525046 #
2. phillmv ◴[] No.7524205[source]
Well, I hope he changes the "auto deleted if you don't check your email for 14 days" and just charges my credit card accordingly. Operating on pre-payment is kind of nutty.
replies(4): >>7524345 #>>7524363 #>>7524395 #>>7525227 #
3. zaidf ◴[] No.7524345[source]
What happens when the CC fails? What happens when the CC fails and the customer is non-responsive? Ultimately Colin has to make a call of whether he deletes the files or not after some point of non-communication from the customer.
replies(2): >>7524645 #>>7525324 #
4. nathanb ◴[] No.7524353[source]
I feel like so many people consider it to be some sort of moral imperative that every company care deeply about growth and market positioning and enterprise-readiness. What happened to "build the company you want to build and have fun with it"?
replies(1): >>7524650 #
5. dalke ◴[] No.7524363[source]
The "truly paranoid" would check backup status email more than once every fortnight. ;)
replies(3): >>7524759 #>>7524987 #>>7526693 #
6. ◴[] No.7524395[source]
7. opendais ◴[] No.7524595[source]
Wouldn't the best response to Patrick's post be to start a non-Geek brand [a B2B brand] for Tarsnap [under a different name] and sell it that way?
replies(1): >>7524978 #
8. ◴[] No.7524645{3}[source]
9. ◴[] No.7524650[source]
10. mindslight ◴[] No.7524759{3}[source]
One of the benefits of a paranoid setup should be not having to constantly check on things.
replies(1): >>7525404 #
11. mdda ◴[] No.7524978[source]
Or (to play devil's advocate) for someone else to start a slick B2B brand that used tarsnap as a backend, and took all the surplus out of the middle...
replies(1): >>7525180 #
12. kybernetyk ◴[] No.7524987{3}[source]
What happens if I get in an accident and get in a coma for longer than 14 days? What if I get arrested? What if I go on my honeymoon and simply forget about the backup? What if ... truly paranoid people are paranoid about that possibility, too.

I know I am and that this 14 days clause is the only reason why I am not using tarsnap.

replies(3): >>7525780 #>>7525963 #>>7526904 #
13. Danieru ◴[] No.7525046[source]
Wait, I thought you ran rsync.net, right?

Wouldn't that make you one of Colin's most serious competitors? I thought you made most of your money from the enterprise market. The same market Patio is suggesting Colin enter!

replies(1): >>7525679 #
14. opendais ◴[] No.7525180{3}[source]
I'd rather the original creator be talked into a 'premium' B2B brand where he nets the profits. Then again, if refuses, I suppose there is nothing unethical with someone doing that.
replies(1): >>7530561 #
15. jsilence ◴[] No.7525227[source]
"Operating on pre-payment is kind of nutty."

Not if you reconsider "backup for the truly paranoid" and ponder about who actually IS the paranoid and what he is paranoid about. Could it be him being paranoid about not wanting to run after his customers money for a service that already has been provided?

replies(2): >>7526696 #>>7527627 #
16. Tuna-Fish ◴[] No.7525324{3}[source]
He will eventually have to wipe my data. However, as it is quite valuable to me, I want this to happen after actual attempts to contact me, including many emails and actual phonecalls. And at the very least no earlier than many months after payments stop. I'm okay with paying more for the service to get this.
replies(1): >>7525722 #
17. dalke ◴[] No.7525404{4}[source]
There are many types of paranoia. Micro-managing is one. Eg,

> if you believe you must check on every detail, your style is symptomatic of insecurity or paranoia - http://www.adams-hall.com/micwilstrany.html

In any case, my ";)" from before stands.

18. rsync ◴[] No.7525679[source]
It makes me happy that tarsnap exists, just like it makes me happy that things like prgmr.com or FreeBSD exist. The world is a more interesting place.
19. e12e ◴[] No.7525722{4}[source]
So, why doesn't anyone set up a payment service dedicated to topping up tarsnap accounts? If this is something people want, and colin doesn't care to implement it -- just pay someone else 1.5 the price with the added (mutual) guarantee that you won't run out of funds (possibly with a max, and/or complicated rules for when payment should cease) ?

Sounds like easy money all around, and colin won't have to deal with the support fallout (nor get paid to deal with it, which is ok).

20. dalke ◴[] No.7525780{4}[source]
"What-if"s are fun! (Still operating under the ";)" from earlier.)

What if auto-renew were added, but you're robbed and knocked into a coma for 2 months. In the meanwhile, the credit card company notices the suspicious transactions, can't get a hold of you, and cancels the card. Auto-renew occurs 3 days later, but the card number on file doesn't work. Colin Percival calls your phone number, and gets no answer for a month. Then what?

If you're truly paranoid, you might have to consider that possibility as well.

With every scenario and solution you can come up with which require intervention, I can double down on and think of a worse-case scenario where your solution won't work and you'll lose your data. A possible non-intervention solution could work, which is to front-load the account to the limits of your paranoia.

replies(1): >>7526738 #
21. ansible ◴[] No.7525963{4}[source]
Or... you could just put 1 year's worth of funds in your tarnsnap account, and check it every season to top it off.
22. CJefferson ◴[] No.7526693{3}[source]
What is google just decided to filter those e-mails into my spam folder and I miss both? That seems like a very possible thing to happen.
replies(1): >>7527872 #
23. ericd ◴[] No.7526696{3}[source]
He could just not stress about running after his customers and chalk it up to breakage. Probably not a good use of his time to be chasing after them for a couple of dollars.
24. freebs ◴[] No.7526738{5}[source]
What if the payments were taken out of an account automatically and you could load up a reserve with money. This would allow for calculations on your usage:money without it being a major factor on immediate loss of service.
25. ForHackernews ◴[] No.7526904{4}[source]
There are two kinds of paranoia here:

1) Paranoid that you will lose your data.

2) Paranoid that your data will fall into the wrong hands.

It seems to me that Tarsnap values preventing #2 over preventing #1.

To follow on your example, what if the authorities who arrested you want to get their mitts on the data in your tarsnap account? Won't you be happy that your data is irrevocably deleted?

26. vacri ◴[] No.7527627{3}[source]
rm -rf after 14 days is a bit severe. There is a middle ground where you deny access to the service, but don't delete the data. Note that this is a timeline not set by the customer's "delete if you haven't heard from me by X", but by a billing system set up around unpredictable costings.

Besides, even the truly paranoid don't know when they're going to lose access to emails for two weeks. Sudden hospitalisation? Travelling in an internet poor area, and your hotel that promised access was 'down'? Temporary incarceration for something you never did? Death of a loved one that puts you out of your normal life procedures? Or just fat-fingering a command because you're human, and missing out on the email from an accidental bulk delete (or similar). Perhaps change it to an opt-in for the truly paranoid: "If you're uncontactable for two weeks and our billing system decides you're out, delete my data rather than merely revoke access".

After all, if you're really after a 'dead-man switch', then that should be a feature on it's own, not something to do with billing. "If I haven't logged in for -foo- weeks, delete my data". That's clearly a dead-man switch, not a proxy analogue conducted via "we've consumed what's left on your account". Plus the user could set the number of weeks, rather than just "some unpredictable future time".

replies(1): >>7528179 #
27. dalke ◴[] No.7527872{4}[source]
Why haven't you white-listed them? The problem with the "delete after 14 days" is that it can be hard to predict on your side how long it will take to exhaust credit. But here what you're asking them is to work around a possible misconfiguration on your side. That's a different class of error.

If tarsnap is really a G2G business, then it makes sense to assume you know how to white-list an email address.

How many other misconfigurations should they deal with? What if the battery is dead on your cell phone when they try to call you after several missed the emails? (Or you're out hiking where there's no reception, or on a cruise, or in another country and didn't want to pay high roaming charges, or ...)

28. atmosx ◴[] No.7528179{4}[source]
What about 28 days? :-)
29. mdda ◴[] No.7530561{4}[source]
I completely agree : But many people (including, possibly the original creator) would feel differently if (a) they chose not to take the advice, and everything remains the same ("I don't need that money"); and (b) someone else took all that surplus instead ("How dare they steal from me!"). Either way, the original creator's bottom-line is the same (probably higher in case (b) due to volume).

Another possibility would be for there to be an 'authorized' premium B2B version - where the original author gets a certain X% ownership, and the slick-marketing type does all the fluff/flashy stuff that adds value for that set of customers.

replies(1): >>7532646 #
30. opendais ◴[] No.7532646{5}[source]
Well you are free to go ask :)