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69 points tim333 | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.213s | source
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thelettere ◴[] No.7329018[source]
Colbert's funny as hell and as likeable as they come. But despite his reputation, he's not exactly an "outside the box" thinker.

He's a deeply religious catholic, is patriotic and apparently believes in the rule of law.

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rosser ◴[] No.7329097[source]
That smells uncomfortably like an ad hominem to me.

What does his Catholicism have to do with his abilities to think vis-à-vis the confines of the notional "box"? And since when is the rule of law a bad thing? You do know what that term means, don't you?

Speaking for myself only, if the US were truly governed by the rule of law, I'd think Snowden should come home and face trial, too. Of course, I also think that if the US were truly governed by the rule of law, his acquittal would be as foregone a conclusion as a conviction currently is.

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michaelmcmillan ◴[] No.7329161[source]
Religion is a set of rules people abide by, primarily ethical rules. Of course that has an influence on how "out-of-the-box" you can be.

The authority of law does not necessarily reflect the ethical thing to do, as I am sure you know.

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dalke ◴[] No.7329242[source]
By that argument, everyone who follows ethical rules has limits to how "out-of-the-box" one can be.

If I am a pacifist, then that places limits on me. If I am a vegetarian, then that places limits on me. If I am a teetotaler the that places limits on me. If I don't believe in using murder to settle parking disputes then that places limits on me. If I don't believe in dumping untreated waste water into the city's water supply then that places limits on me. If I don't believe in tripping people just to see them fall, then that places limits on me.

I am well inside the box on a huge number of things. I hope you are too.

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sirsar ◴[] No.7329637[source]
A notable difference between your examples and "religion" (or at least some subset of that widely scoped word) is that religion, at least in the context of this conversation, is someone else's large set of loosely-correlated rules. If one takes the Torah to the literal extreme, they build a fence on their roof, because it was common thousands of years ago to let neighbors sleep on one's roof.

Blind adherence to someone else's rules is certainly much more restrictive; it makes the box a lot stronger and less holey.

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dalke ◴[] No.7330002[source]
Hate to break this to you, but the law and culture are mostly "someone else's large set of loosely-correlated rules."

Rules against sex with minors. Rules against animal cruelty. Rules against trespassing. Rules against insider trading. Rules against littering. Rules against CFC emissions. There's also cultural views in parts of the US against eating bugs, against cross-dressing, and against promoting atheism, which are sometimes met with social scorn even though neither illegal nor unethical. Miss Manners had a long running column on what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable etiquette, and wearing last year's fashions, or white after Labor Day, can be a grave faux pas for some situations, with possible negative social and career implications.

The original question was "What does his Catholicism have to do with his abilities to think vis-à-vis the confines of the notional "box"?"

The response was that "Of course [religion] has an influence on how "out-of-the-box" you can be."

My counter is that every law, moral, or ethical standard keeps people in a box. That's not always a bad thing. The original question asks specifically why his Catholicism necessarily prevents him from being an out-of-the-box thinker. Must one be outside of every box before one can be labeled thus? Which boxes are okay to be in and still be an out-of-the-box thinker?

Based on watching his show, I do not think Colbert blindly adheres to the Catholic religion. He is quite aware of the internal logic of how the faith reaches certain conclusions in the current cultural context. I therefore don't think your final comment is relevant.

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thelettere ◴[] No.7330463[source]
Colbert has stated he's a Catholic because he doesn't believe there's any other reasonable explanation for the existence of joy.

I'm sure there's a little bit more to it - but perhaps not much more. His take on the Bible is literal enough that he believes in the existence of hell.

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dalke ◴[] No.7330526[source]
And how is that blind adherence?

More specifically, please characterize what makes something "blind adherence" vs. "adherence" in general. When can I say that someone blindly adheres to vegetarianism? When can I say that someone blindly adheres to a support of representational democracy?

Going back to the topic, how does that blind adherence prevent someone from being an out-of-the-box thinker of any sort?

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rosser ◴[] No.7330631[source]
how does that blind adherence prevent someone from being an out-of-the-box thinker of any sort?

It doesn't, at least not necessarily. That is to say, they may (and often probably do) correlate, but as we all know, correlation != causation.

What you're seeing here is just another flavor of blind adherence — namely to the dogma of atheism which dictates that people of faith are by definition delusional.

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1. dalke ◴[] No.7330833[source]
If no one is willing to define what "blind adherence" means then it's hard to determine if there's a correlation, as you suggest.

Based on the conversation so far, I interpret it to mean "someone who believes something other than what I believe, and for reasons I don't agree with."

Perhaps the best solution might be to invert things, but I have been unable to find a list of out-of-the-box thinkers. Mostly I find people claiming to be so, without providing any external evidence.