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    196 points yuedongze | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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    gradus_ad ◴[] No.46195373[source]
    The proliferation of nondeterministically generated code is here to stay. Part of our response must be more dynamic, more comprehensive and more realistic workload simulation and testing frameworks.
    replies(5): >>46195431 #>>46195733 #>>46197437 #>>46197956 #>>46199307 #
    1. yuedongze ◴[] No.46195431[source]
    i've seen a lot of startups that use AI to QA human work. how about the idea of use humans to QA AI work? a lot of interesting things might follow
    replies(6): >>46195474 #>>46195546 #>>46195718 #>>46195741 #>>46195828 #>>46199496 #
    2. Aldipower ◴[] No.46195474[source]
    Sounds inhuman.
    replies(2): >>46195538 #>>46195561 #
    3. A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 ◴[] No.46195538[source]
    Nah, sounds like management, but I am repeating myself. In all seriousness, I have found myself having to carefully rein some of similar decisions in. I don't want to get into details, but there are times I wonder if they understand how things really work or if people need some 'floor' level exposure before they just decree stuff.
    4. __loam ◴[] No.46195546[source]
    No thanks.
    5. quantummagic ◴[] No.46195561[source]
    As an industry, we've been doing the same thing to people in almost every other sector of the workforce, since we began. Automation is just starting to come for us now, and a lot of us are really pissed off about it. All of a sudden, we're humanitarians.
    replies(1): >>46196483 #
    6. adventured ◴[] No.46195718[source]
    A large percentage (at least 50%) of the market for software developers will shift to lower paid jobs focused on managing, inspecting and testing the work that AI does. If a median software developer job paid $125k before, it'll shift to $65k-$85k type AI babysitting work after.
    replies(1): >>46196176 #
    7. ◴[] No.46195741[source]
    8. colechristensen ◴[] No.46195828[source]
    Yes, but not like what you think. Programmers are going to look more like product managers with extra technical context.

    AI is also great at looking for its own quality problems.

    Yesterday on an entirely LLM generated codebase

    Prompt: > SEARCH FOR ANTIPATTERNS

    Found 17 antipatterns across the codebase:

    And then what followed was a detailed list, about a third of them I thought were pretty important, a third of them were arguably issues or not, and the rest were either not important or effectively "this project isn't fully functional"

    As an engineer, I didn't have to find code errors or fix code errors, I had to pick which errors were important and then give instructions to have them fixed.

    replies(2): >>46196151 #>>46197630 #
    9. mjr00 ◴[] No.46196151[source]
    > Programmers are going to look more like product managers with extra technical context.

    The limit of product manager as "extra technical context" approaches infinity is programmer. Because the best, most specific way to specify extra technical context is just plain old code.

    replies(1): >>46197222 #
    10. mjr00 ◴[] No.46196176[source]
    It's funny that I heard exactly this when I graduated university in the late 2000s:

    > A large percentage (at least 50%) of the market for software developers will shift to lower paid jobs focused on managing, inspecting and testing the work that outsourced developers do. If a median software developer job paid $125k before, it'll shift to $65k-$85k type outsourced developer babysitting work after.

    11. Terr_ ◴[] No.46196483{3}[source]
    > Automation is just starting to come for us now

    This argument is common and facile: Software development has always been about "automating ourselves out of a job", whether in the broad sense of creating compilers and IDEs, or in the individual sense that you write some code and say: "Hey, I don't want to rewrite this again later, not even if I was being paid for my time, I'll make it into a reusable library."

    > the same thing

    The reverse: What pisses me off is how what's coming is not the same thing.

    Customers are being sold a snake-oil product, and its adoption may well ruin things we've spent careers de-crappifying by making them consistent and repeatable and understandable. In the aftermath, some portion of my (continued) career will be diverted to cleaning up the lingering damage from it.

    12. LPisGood ◴[] No.46197222{3}[source]
    This is exactly why no code / low code solutions don’t really work. At the end of the day, there is irreducible technical complexity.
    13. manmal ◴[] No.46197630[source]
    Yeah, don‘t rely on the LLM finding all the issues. Complex code like Swift concurrency tooling is just riddled with issues. I usually need to increase to 100% line coverage and then let it loop on hanging tests until everything _seems_ to work.

    (It’s been said that Swift concurrency is too hard for humans as well though)

    replies(1): >>46199237 #
    14. colechristensen ◴[] No.46199237{3}[source]
    I don't trust programmers to find all the issues either and in several shops I've been in "we should have tests" was a controversial argument.

    A good software engineering system built around the top LLMs today is definitely competitive in quality to a mediocre software shop and 100x faster and 1000x cheaper.

    15. hn_acc1 ◴[] No.46199496[source]
    This feels a lot like the "humans must be ready at any time to take over from FSD" that Tesla is trying to push. With presumably similar results.

    If it works 85% of the time, how soon do you catch that it is moving in the wrong direction? Are you having a standup every few minutes for it to review (edit) it's work with you? Are you reviewing hundreds of thousands of lines of code every day?

    It feels a bit like pouring cement or molten steel really fast: at best, it works, and you get things done way faster. Get it just a bit wrong, and your work is all messed up, as well as a lot of collateral damage. But I guess if you haven't shipped yet, it's ok to start over? How many different respins can you keep in your head before it all blends?