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Catala – Law to Code

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116 points Grognak | 4 comments | 06 Dec 25 22:11 UTC | HN request time: 1.756s | source
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alphazard ◴[07 Dec 25 03:35 UTC] No.46178933[source]▶
Obviously it would be great if this caught on, but it's not even widely understood/agreed on that read-time precision is a desirable quality in a legal system. This is something almost everyone here takes for granted; we want the interpreter or machine to give the same result for the same input. We want that property so we can know the run-time behavior during development.

There are judges and politicians in the US that advocate for various "interpretations" of laws including parts of the constitution, which are different from what the law literally says. In fact they refer to the literal meaning as the "literal interpretation", implying it is one of many valid interpretations, and casting doubt on the idea of language having a precise meaning. The crowd here knows that it is totally possible and often invaluable to work in languages with precise meaning. Anyways, in practice this means: all the steps happened for the law to get passed by the legislature including arguing about the exact text, and instead of enforcing it as written, the judiciary enforces some slightly different but similar law.

A technology like this necessarily concentrates power in the legislature, and takes it away from the judicial system. It concentrates legal power at write time and removes it from run/read time.

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1. maratc ◴[08 Dec 25 12:55 UTC] No.46191682[source]▶
Do you really want, for example, the US constitution's write time understandings to be perpetuated forever? Their understanding of "citizen" did not include neither women nor black slaves, just to take one example. Another example is the famous question of "whether or not the right of a woman to abortion is a consitution-guaranteed federal right?" to which a bunch of very important folks gave an answer in 1973 but another bunch of very important folks gave a different answer in 2022.
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2. alphazard ◴[08 Dec 25 15:46 UTC] No.46193630[source]▶
Write-time understandings no, write-time language yes. You can always change it, which is what happened in the case of women and slaves. To be clear, changing the text is the correct way to handle that, we shouldn't have just relied on the understandings of people changing over time to fix those issues.

The famous example you give illustrates why a system without precise meaning cannot work. It can seem like it works when lots of people act in good faith, but it quickly breaks down with even a few actors play the actual game instead of some "spirit of the game". In 1973, judges ruled one way, playing the actual game to accomplish a goal, and then everyone acted surprised in 2022, when the same tactics (playing the actual game not the spirit) reverted the decision.

I'm going to take a guess, and assume that you were in favor of the 1973 understanding and not the 2022 understanding. It would have been nice for that to have been captured precisely in some kind of specification, instead of enacted with a volatile read-time mechanism.

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3. maratc ◴[08 Dec 25 16:00 UTC] No.46193845[source]▶
I don't live in the US and I'm rather indifferent to either understanding, so it would be correct to say that I'm neither in favour nor in opposition of any one of these. Being personally unaffected, I simply find it an interesting subject to observe.

With that, I still want to point out that even if we both agree that "changing the text is the correct way to handle," it's not a possibility that is even remotely practical or achievable; any meaningful progress that the US have had in the last 100 years or so was achieved solely by the means of "reinventing" the meaning of already written (and unchangeable) words. That seems to be the exact thing you seem to be in opposition of.

4. knollimar ◴[08 Dec 25 18:29 UTC] No.46195844[source]▶
Wouldn't 1973 be spirit based and 2022 be text based in this instance?