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    681 points Anon84 | 18 comments | | HN request time: 0.449s | source | bottom
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    mozarella ◴[] No.46189252[source]
    https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2024/01/31/end.html#section...

    Vitalik touched upon this briefly in an other-wise long and wide-reaching essay. I think its a good treatment of the topic that the author is talking about. He categorizes the ecosystem broadly into 4 cohorts- [token holders] (which includes investors, speculators, etc.), [pragmatic users] (actual end-users who spend crypto to buy stuff), [intellectuals] (who give the vision and ideology), [builders] (of blockchains, apps, etc.) - These 4 groups come together but with different motivations and there is a gap in understanding between them. Indeed, there is even resistance against trying to reach an understanding - one which plays out in the comments section of every crypto-related post on hn. The author of this twitter-post clearly falls under [intellectual, builder] and has been disillusioned by the speculators from [token-holders]. Yet the [token-holders] are a vital component (as are the other groups) as they fund most of the development and adoption. Ultimately these 4 groups have more in common than not. The challenge going forward is to balance the occasionally conflicting needs of all the 4 groups, which includes checking the excesses of each group, while try to achieve a consensus. (Vitalik provides a nice diagram that maps out what that would look like). Crypto is an experiment in economics and economics is a science as well as a social-science. Anyone looking for a good solution must seek to understand and address the psychology of all the actors involved.

    replies(7): >>46190342 #>>46190887 #>>46191244 #>>46194531 #>>46194801 #>>46201630 #>>46204003 #
    1. cryptonym ◴[] No.46190342[source]
    In a casino you have - The gamblers spending a lot on the casino - The people coming in for the fun and spending little money - The owners/C-levels - The operational team

    Someone from the operational team just learned that business relies only on the first group to be successful.

    replies(4): >>46190609 #>>46191410 #>>46192189 #>>46195562 #
    2. brohee ◴[] No.46190609[source]
    You forgot the money launderers, in both ecosystems. Casinos are the original tumbler.
    replies(2): >>46191103 #>>46192286 #
    3. ethbr1 ◴[] No.46191103[source]
    'I'm shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.' https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/quotes/?item=qt0429972
    replies(1): >>46191752 #
    4. brianolson ◴[] No.46191410[source]
    I worked in blockchain ("builder") for 5 years. I started 'eh, there are speculators, whatever, I build good tech' but finished 'holy crap speculators completely dominate and distort everything, nobody cares about good tech'
    replies(3): >>46192232 #>>46193603 #>>46202304 #
    5. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.46191752{3}[source]
    "I'm shocked! Shocked…"

    (The double "shocked" is what makes the quote next-level.)

    replies(1): >>46195489 #
    6. Aardwolf ◴[] No.46192189[source]
    > Someone from the operational team just learned that business relies only on the first group to be successful.

    Is there any possibility the presence of the people who are there just for fun still encourages/increases the size of the first group?

    replies(1): >>46192447 #
    7. dukeyukey ◴[] No.46192232[source]
    Yep. As much as I can see utility in some crypto, and there are some personalities in respect (e.g. Vitalik) by and large the sector in such a dumpster fire I'm not going anywhere near it. I've got some bitcoin in a Coinbase account, that's as close as I'm getting.
    8. mothballed ◴[] No.46192286[source]
    That falls under pragmatists
    9. watwut ◴[] No.46192447[source]
    Imo, yes. There are where gamblers come from. They are also providing plausible deniality to gamblers.
    10. FabHK ◴[] No.46193603[source]
    > nobody cares about good tech

    Indeed. For example: Chia is arguably decent tech (better than Bitcoin), built by Bram Cohen (of BitTorrent fame), innovative PoSpace+Time. But nobody cares, it's at #450 in market cap, way down below Doge (#10), $TRUMP (#72), Fartcoin (#144), Melania (#375).

    replies(3): >>46193785 #>>46193822 #>>46195470 #
    11. underlipton ◴[] No.46193785{3}[source]
    The market cap obsession is part of the problem. Can I use it to buy things, easily? That's the only metric that should count if you're looking for practical use, not speculation.
    replies(2): >>46194887 #>>46196310 #
    12. nailer ◴[] No.46193822{3}[source]
    Agreed re Chia, but here’s a counterpoint: MXE is 16,000 times faster than FHE, completely changes the concept of computing (that in order to calculate something you need to see the data) and it as a result Arcium the hottest thing in crypto right now.
    13. NoMoreNicksLeft ◴[] No.46194887{4}[source]
    A successful cryptocurrent probably has to start by first having a market that is dissatisfied with the available traditional currencies. If that market were to introduce on (with good tech), then it could immediately see the cryptocurrency used for its intended purpose. At that point, if it avoided the attention of speculators (not forever, just long enough for it to get its feet underneath itself) or could discourage those speculators somehow, what happens then?

    Is there some other failure mode waiting, or does it take off?

    14. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.46195470{3}[source]
    Nano is also another interesting one or litecoin etc., basically just having low gas fees I guess and being more efficient but I don't like shilling these products because I personally am a stauch believer in stablecoins and there are stablecoins like USDC's on chains like polygons which can satisfy the function "good enough" for me where they have trust etc. which I don't wish to replicate

    There are still some 0 gas fees innovations happening in stablecoin marketplaces which is going to be interesting to see how that pans out.

    15. ethbr1 ◴[] No.46195489{4}[source]
    Doesn't quite translate in text. Figured those who could hear it in their head wouldn't need the extra prompting.
    16. soerxpso ◴[] No.46195562[source]
    You also have this quadchotomy in a department store, or in a number of other valuable businesses.
    17. wat10000 ◴[] No.46196310{4}[source]
    It's hard to measure that directly. Market cap is a decent proxy, albeit inexact. If a coin has a market cap of $1.8 trillion, you know a lot of people are doing a lot of something with it, and it's likely that includes using it to buy and sell stuff to some extent. If it has a market cap of $200 million, then there just can't be many people buying and selling with it, and that means it's pretty likely to be difficult to use that way.
    18. mozarella ◴[] No.46202304[source]
    The point i was trying to make was that the disillusionment faced by technologists possibly stemmed from a naivety about how the economy works and how people respond to incentives. Speculators are a "feature/bug" of pretty much any financial system. Stocks, real-estate, fiat-currencies, potatoes - The price of everything is being distorted by speculators. Done right, they bring liquidity, financial stability, and wealth creation. Left to their own devices, they cause volatility, inequity and financial destruction. (Crypto is probably more on the latter side on some of those metrics atm). The People looking to build a good crypto solution has to be clear-eyed about how to handle them.

    I also wonder if the author has partly himself to blame. From his post, it looks like he worked for the seedier players in the space (because the pay was better) and is angry at the whole space. Its like a developer who worked for Oracle on MySql swearing off the entire open-source community.

    edit: >nobody cares about good tech'

    True. That's a big part of why you need [token-holders], "Build it and they will come" is more of a hope than a strategy.