Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

What specifically are you talking about here? It appears to me that your comment is an expression of vibe with zero information content.

There's no dichotomy between treating symptoms and cause even when the cause is treatable (which isn't the case with ADHD; it's a neurotype, with differences showing on brain scan levels) — and that's setting aside the discussion of whether it's something we need to "treat" in the first place.

We still have painkillers for people who need them while they are getting treatment.

We still have meds for runny noses, we still have Tylenol for fever, even though these are merely symptoms.

We still have pills for allergies.

And on that note: the symptoms (such as fever and allergic reactions) can and do kill people.

Please reconsider your comment.

I am not responding further for your sake, but for the sake of those who read this thread.

> taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd.

Speed (methamphetamine) has the same relationship to Adderall (dextroamphetamines) as methanol does to ethanol; a difference in methyl group.

Ethanol (aka alcohol) is commonly used for recreational purposes.

If you think Adderall is the same thing as "speed", I hope you wouldn't mind drinking a glass of methanol to prove the point that chemically similar substances have similar effects.

> modern western society exhibits a plethora of conditions that are likely to result in the manifestation of adhd behaviours in non adhd individuals

Which is why the diagnostic criteria for ADHD require a lifelong manifestation of ADHD symptoms.

Notice how you say behaviors, not symptoms or traits, i.e. how people act, and not how they feel, which difficulties they face, what cost they bear, and so on.

The behavior of an ADHD individual might be no different from one without ADHD. We can be on time, for example.

It is just immensely more difficult for us, just like it's difficult for someone with a broken leg that didn't quite heal to walk.

And yes, anyone can bump their toe on a table leg and experience pain for a while. That doesn't mean that people with broken legs don't exist.

>a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd.

It isn't, because we have cheaper and more reliable ways.

The difference is there though.

> you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward - to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction.

Believing that "doping up the populace" is what's taking place is a delusion that I can't address in the same way that I can't address the belief that the Loch Ness monster caused the 2019 Coronavirus pandemic.

Unfortunately, your worldview seem to be as strongly detached from reality as you are convinced about the veracity of your unshakable beliefs.

But again, if you sincerely believe people taking Adderall are taking speed, you really could save a lot on booze by drinking methanol instead.

Do let us know how that goes.

Maybe.

>a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd

Correct.

>taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd

We arent talking about productivity gains.

>for me to reconsider my comment you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward

"Doping up" is intentionally emotive language and a misrepresentation.

>to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction

You dont even clearly state your complaint. Its about patient outcomes, not "society" but you are implying they are also a social good. Great.

The best path forward is to reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. These drugs, reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. People with these illnesses, have a better life due to the medication. Why that upsets you is a deeply internal problem to you, not a problem with society or medicine.

Oh my. I was going to ask if you've drank a glass of methanol to argue that Adderall and speed the same thing, as I suggested... but judging my the content of your comments, you might have had more than one already.

Well it would be a net social good. But I expect I will see a different account with vastly the same posting style back here next time ADHD comes up, spewing the same nonsense.

If you encounter a bit of bitterness from the ADHD community online, let me provide some perspective: I have been called lazy my entire life, I have wondered why everybody could just do stuff and apply themselves. Why couldn't I just clean my house, do my homework, keep on top of chores, or even find the energy to play games after a day of work? I only found out as an adult I have a disability which makes all of that an uphill battle for me, INCLUDING finding the motivation for the fun stuff. There is an easy fix for this, some meds that take care of SOME of the problem. They don't fix it in much the same way that a wheelchair doesn't fix the legs of a crippled person, but it sure is like playing life on easy mode if you're used to dragging yourself around by your arms. And now I'm stuck explaining this to people who have done the barest minimum of research and who say 'oh it only is treating symptoms'. They have the audacity of calling me lazy (again!) for not training my arms more to overcome my disability that way. And my response is simple: You can take my metaphorical wheelchair over my dead body, and if you were in my position you would feel exactly the same way.

ADHD behavior is normal human behavior, because we're all human.

And indeed, some quite reasonable accommodations and changes in the way the society functions and forms expectations of ourselves and others would go a long way towards making ADHD folks living fulfilling lives without pain.

All that said, executive dysfunction is still a thing, and ADHD folks routinely find themselves struggling with their own goals and lives, apart from the society and its expectations.

Technology can and does help a lot (electric kettles that turn themselves off, washer-dryer combo machines that don't require remembering to take clothes out, etc).

But then there are still things that I struggle with on my own, like wanting to send postcards to friends and taking literal years to get to it.

I really can't blame it on the society.

That's where the meds can make a big difference in one's life.

In some ways, ADHD is an advantage. We fare better than others in emergencies. Hyperfocus is an asset. Having a million hobbies is a plus.

But in other ways, it's something that makes us need support.

The meds are one of the ways the society accommodates us and gives us that support.

The alternative is that you prevent millions of people in managing their disability while asking them to bet on your view of the world AND on our collective ability to change it. In the best case scenario where we manage that shift, that's what, 10 years of my life gone while society adjusts? Will you write my kids a nice letter explaining them their dad is going to be a deadbeat the next 10 years while we fix society, because somebody on the internet thinks daddy shouldn't be on stimulant medication?

You're just not presenting an attractive deal to anyone, whilst very politely telling disabled people making the best of their shit situation that their crutches should not exist. Hell, maybe they shouldn't need to exist, but how is that my fault? And while I can't tell if you stand on the side of 'using meds to manage ADHD is a failure of self discipline and morality', but if you do: I promise you most people with ADHD have more self discipline in their little toe than others do in their entire body. But self discipline doesn't make a cripple walk, as much as it doesn't make my brain make the chemicals I need to put my body into action. I've spent enough time of my life flogging myself into action, believing I was a fundamentally lazy human, I'll take the meds.

The only thing that changed is the environment. The person is fine.

So all this "winter clothing" scam exists only to enrich clothes makers.

The world simply should be warm everywhere, then none of that stuff would be necessary.

Winter clothes aren't a solution to feeling cold, because they don't address the root problem of Finland being on the map.

People simply shouldn't be subjected to such conditions.

...see how you sound like?

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>societal amphetamines are about as supportive as me handing you a set of crutches after i broke your legs

Well, the common ground here is that the crutches would indeed be helpful in this scenario.

>if you took an adhd cunt and threw him in the bush he would be fine

I get your point, but nobody would be fine like that. People are social animals.

Sure, the society sucks. But we literally can't live without it.

And while we're fixing it, well, we better have the meds.

> eg. maybe if we didn't get forced into a 9-5 schedule and instead had a bit more freedom , people would be more happy to devote energy to their work ...

100%.

> "here, take this speed and wreck your heart so that you fit better into the box we designed for you"

Counterpoint: stimulants are still useful and helpful even when you take the society away.

I can be living on my own and on my own terms, and still be upset that it took me literally 11 (eleven) years to mail a gift to a friend [1].

Sure, there could be ways mailing a package could be easier. But I really can't blame the 11 year delay on society trying to fit me in a box.

>the only way forward is to through honest questioning as to why adhd diagnoses are thousands of times greater in the west,

Citation needed. But availability and quality of mental healthcare is one big factor here in any cases.

Saying this as some born in the USSR.

My mother got an ADHD diagnosis in her 50s, long after moving to the US.

It's not like she didn't struggle with ADHD in the USSR, it just wasn't an option to get an ADHD diagnosis there.

[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Eleven%20Years%20To%20Mail%20A%...

Thanks for writing this succinct counterpoint!

The argument of the commenter you're responding to reminds me of the "ADHD is a superpower!” vibe, which I perceive as toxic positivity, but couldn't rebuke quite as clearly [1].

"There's nothing wrong with you, it's literally the entire human society that's broken" has the same implication ("don't take meds, you're nOt bRoKeN”).

Of course it's the environment that causes our symptoms. Just like cold weather makes one feel cold.

It'd be rather silly to argue that winter clothes should be abandoned, that they exist only to make money for clothing manufacturers.

Some of us live in cold places. We need winter clothes. And we don't make the weather.

[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Superpower

I might've misunderstood the point you were trying to make, but saying 'society causes the issue' usually is followed by 'therefore treating with meds is silly and we shouldn't do that'. The latter part is what I take issue with, not the former, and if you weren't advocating for that then we have no issue and are in agreement.

I'd love to find a constructive way to change society for the better so ADHD is not as much of an issue, but personally, I don't see that happening. And I do see anti-intellectualism and puritanism on the rise, and with it, a movement that wants to take my crutches away to deal with society as it is. Maybe you weren't one of them, but I saw you making similar arguments, which is what prompted me to respond.

Calling the group of all stimulant medications "speed" is not a great sign either if I have to judge where somebody stands in this debate btw. Dextroamphetamine, one of the ingredients in Adderall, is similar to other amphetamines as found in speed, but for instance methylphenidate aka Ritalin only partially has the same working mechanisms, blocking the reuptake of dopamine and norepiphrine but not helping the extra release of more of these neurotransmitters. And that comes with a different profile in terms of addiction risks and whatnot. It is not helpful to call all of these medications 'speed' as if all ADHD people are buying potentially contaminated stuff on street corners from shady dealers, manufacturing this breaking bad style in their shed. Managing ADHD is done with clean, medical-grade, typically less-potent versions, with tightly controlled doses, closely managed by a licensed medical professional. Framing ADHD patients taking their prescription medication as speed users is not helpful. Even if you don't have any ill intent, reinforcing the belief we are all essentially the same as junkies just provides ammo for people who do want to take this away.

For me personally, I tend to view myself as a human with some characteristics which in most contexts are not helpful, but make me uniquely suited for other situations. I try to avoid the word 'broken', but for a long time I thought about myself as 'broken in a sometimes useful way'. My burden in life is to manage and control the characteristics where they are disadvantaging me, and position myself as much as I can in positions where these characteristics are useful assets. To hook into your winter metaphore: If you always feel cold, working in a tropic resort where others would feel continually hot, sweaty and uncomfortable might just be perfect for you.

Where it crosses the line for me is neurotypical people saying 'oh I don't need winter clothes, and anyone who does is must be to use a shortcut and should just jog themselves warm instead'. Or even ADHD people saying: 'My feeling cold all the time is a superpower, you should just go work in your local sauna and you'll have no problem at all!'. Great, happy that you guys don't have this issue or figured out a workaround, but I do, and I need my damn winter clothes. I wish I didn't, I'll look for warmer situations, but I need them right now.