Most active commenters
  • toast0(3)

←back to thread

281 points nharada | 57 comments | | HN request time: 0.23s | source | bottom
1. s1mon ◴[] No.45902388[source]
How will Waymos handle speed limits on highways? In the city, they seem to stick to the rules. A large percentage of drivers in the bay area, including non-emergency police, drive well above the legal limit regularly. Unless Waymo sticks to the slow lane, it's going to be a weird issue.
replies(10): >>45902469 #>>45902480 #>>45902496 #>>45902654 #>>45902852 #>>45903565 #>>45903832 #>>45905893 #>>45906032 #>>45906425 #
2. mkinsella ◴[] No.45902480[source]
In the few times I’ve seen a Waymo on the freeway in the Bay Area, they have always been in the slow lane and driving 55-65 MPH.
3. jeffbee ◴[] No.45902496[source]
If you watch the videos that insiders have been posting, it never exceeds the speed limits.

If you watch the videos more carefully, you will notice the people who speed by at 85 MPH later enter the screen again, because that is the nature of freeway traffic.

I predict that a few hundred of these on the road will measurably improve safety and decrease severe congestion by being that one sane driver that defuses stop-and-go catastrophes. In fact I think CHP should just contract with them to pace 101 in waves.

replies(3): >>45902636 #>>45902773 #>>45903661 #
4. embedding-shape ◴[] No.45902587[source]
Indeed, and I'm guessing the Waymos have forward facing cameras + know their own speed? Feels like a natural jump to begin automatically reporting cars that are speeding past them to the police, with a camera snapshot of the plate, with everything else censored.
5. aworks ◴[] No.45902636[source]
I was on 101 during evening rush hour, speeding along like everyone. Then I saw brake lights from a Waymo. Later followed by all the surrounding cars. Interesting that it was the first to detect a slowdown.
replies(1): >>45903679 #
6. cortesoft ◴[] No.45902654[source]
Luckily this won't be a problem in Los Angeles, because traffic prevents you from ever going over the speed limit.
replies(4): >>45903417 #>>45903920 #>>45904462 #>>45904540 #
7. andy99 ◴[] No.45902662[source]
Sounds like you’ve never driven on a highway. Taking some imaginary moral high ground doesn’t make one any less dangerous.
8. dogman144 ◴[] No.45902661[source]
Why is that the problem for above the legal speed limit drivers?

A slow fleet of Waymo’s will impact your average 5-10 over same as your 20 over, and that’ll collectively impact traffic.

The implicit assumption you and many other in tech share is humans must adapt to the tech protocol, and not the other way around.

After 20 years of growing negative externalities from this general approach, which I see baked into your comment - are we seriously about to let this occur all over again with a new version of tech?

Fool me once, fool me twice… I think we’re at fool me 10 times and do it again in terms of civic trust of tech in its spaces.

replies(1): >>45903008 #
9. gs17 ◴[] No.45902709[source]
That's a great way to make them targets for vandalism. I'm in a city they're about to get in to (Nashville), and if the snitch-mobile tattled on everyone (the highways here that are officially 55 are "really" 75 with some exceptions, and going the speed limit can end up being more dangerous), sensors would start getting bullet holes.

Of course, unlike the normal car break-ins here, the cops might do something about them.

replies(2): >>45903088 #>>45906130 #
10. gs17 ◴[] No.45902773[source]
> In fact I think CHP should just contract with them to pace 101 in waves.

"Waves" are really what we would want them to prevent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave

The autonomous cars can prevent these waves from forming, which would get people to their destinations faster than speeding.

11. toss1 ◴[] No.45902801[source]
No, it is not only a problem for "'well above the legal limit' speeding drivers"; it is a problem for you, and the solution requires more thought than the "just follow the rules" that you put into your post.

There are many instances where the entire mass of traffic across three or four lanes is 10-20mph above the stated limit, e.g., going 75-85mph in a 66mph posted area.

It may not be legal, but it is reality. And when it is everyone, it is not only "aggressive" drivers. It is everyone. And one driver thinking they will change the situation only makes it worse.

If you are going 20-30mph below the speed of traffic you are at least as much a hazard to yourself and everyone around you as going 20-30mph above the speed of traffic, and the stated speed limit has nothing to do with it.

Going substantially slower than traffic, even in the slow lane with flashers on, nearly all of the threats and actions are overtaking you and coming from behind you, meaning to see and react to most of the developing situations, you must be driving through your rear-view mirrors.

And the situation you create can be very deadly, as one car can change lanes to avoid you, revealing you late to the next car, which barely changes lanes, and further reduces time for the next, who hits you and starts the pile-up.

It is not only their problem, it is yours too. Sure, you may be legally in the right, but you have still caused yourself to get hit.

What my grandfather explained to me is still correct:

"You never want to be dead right."

12. circuit10 ◴[] No.45902852[source]
As someone who doesn’t drive but has done a UK theory test - aren’t you supposed to stick to the “slow lane” (no matter how fast you’re going) unless you’re overtaking? And that’s why it’s not actually called the “fast lane” but the “passing lane”. So I don’t see why you would be in the passing lane unless you’re going faster than others anyway. And there are plenty of lorries and coaches (trucks and buses in US terms?) that are physically limited to below the speed limit anyway

Though I’ve heard people treat it differently in the US

replies(6): >>45903011 #>>45903022 #>>45903144 #>>45903339 #>>45903463 #>>45907892 #
13. testdummy13 ◴[] No.45903008{3}[source]
As long as they don't sit in the passing lane, I don't see how a fleet of vehicles moving at a consistent speed and not driving erratically will have any more negative impact on traffic than a human driver. Like other's have mentioned, it might actually improve traffic as you don't have people speeding up to get close to a person and then quickly slowing down, causing "phantom" traffic jams.

Also, if the Waymos are following the laws, and that causes problems... then maybe those laws should be changed? Especially if most drivers already don't follow the laws.

14. jjfoooo4 ◴[] No.45903011[source]
Yes. People do in fact safely drive the speed limit.

If "we'll have too many cars on the freeway following the speed limit" ranks as a serious concern, I think we've really lost the plot.

I recently drove by a fatal accident that had just happened on the freeway. A man on the street had been ripped in half, and his body was lying on the road. I can't imagine the scene is all that unlike the 40 thousand other US road deaths that happen every year.

As a driver I'm willing to accept some minor inconvenience to improve the situation. As a rider I trust Waymo's more than human drivers.

replies(1): >>45903268 #
15. tfehring ◴[] No.45903022[source]
You’re correct. There are people in the US who drive in the passing lane without passing, but most consider that a bad practice, as it makes roads both less efficient and less safe.
replies(1): >>45903172 #
16. IncreasePosts ◴[] No.45903088{3}[source]
How about you just change the speed limits to 75 then
17. maxerickson ◴[] No.45903144[source]
If there are vehicles going slow due to capability, you are pretty likely to be in an area where traffic density means that there's lots of vehicles in all the available lanes.

Plenty of people do not follow the rules about staying to the right.

18. whimsicalism ◴[] No.45903172{3}[source]
i think this is a state by state cultural difference
19. iteria ◴[] No.45903268{3}[source]
It depends on where you are. There was a protest in in Atlanta about the speed limit. What did they do? They got in every. Single. Lane. As did the speed limit. This backed up traffic for miles. It stopped commercial delivery and had ramifications for entire area. The protesters were arrested. For going the legal limit. The speed limit did not change, but there is a reason why it's never enforced.

I've lived in a couple of places where going the speed limit is a whole problem that can cascade outside of just yourself. There is an argument to be made that perhaps then the speed limit shouldn't be that low, but in driving safety is far more important than legality. It will be interesting to see how Waymo handles these realities when it gets to those areas.

replies(2): >>45903823 #>>45906634 #
20. toast0 ◴[] No.45903339[source]
The slow lane and passing lane dichotomy makes sense in a rural highway with two lanes in your direction.

It makes less sense in an urban environment with 5 or more lanes in your direction. Vehicles will be traveling at varying speeds in all lanes, ideally with a monotonic gradient, but it just doesn't happen, and it's unlikely to.

In California, large trucks generally have a lower speed limit (however many trucks are not speed governed and do exceed the truck limit and sometimes the car limit) and lane restrictions on large highways. Waymo may do well if it tends toward staying in the lanes where trucks are allowed as those tend to flow closer to posted car speed limits. But sometimes there's left exits, and sometimes traffic flow is really poor on many right lanes because of upcoming exits. And during commute time, I think the HOV lane would be preferred; taxis are generally eligible for the HOV lane even when only the driver is present, but I don't know about self-driving with a single or no occupant.

replies(1): >>45903554 #
21. nradov ◴[] No.45903417[source]
It's hilarious to see people in LA buying sports cars. Like even if you're willing to risk a speeding ticket you won't be able to drive faster than the traffic in front of you. Just a status symbol, I guess.
replies(6): >>45903525 #>>45903601 #>>45903931 #>>45904454 #>>45907347 #>>45908591 #
22. __s ◴[] No.45903463[source]
In Ontario we have lots of 3 lane highways (we'll ignore Toronto area, where speed is limited by traffic anyways). What happens is that trucks & people getting on/off exits are in right most lane. Middle lane is everyone else, going 10-20 km/h over speed limit. Leftmost lane is people passing, or the maniacs going over 150 km/h while relying on their map system to alert them of highway patrol
23. btian ◴[] No.45903525{3}[source]
There are many race tracks in LA area.
24. circuit10 ◴[] No.45903554{3}[source]
Isn’t the situation you’re describing where speeds vary due to queues going to be in heavy traffic where cars aren’t getting close to the speed limit anyway?

(also it’s kind of amazing that 5 parallel lanes is considered normal in the US… I think the most I’ve ever personally seen in the UK is 4 and that’s only on very major routes, and we don’t have any exits on the wrong side of the motorway)

replies(2): >>45904072 #>>45907909 #
25. mixedbit ◴[] No.45903565[source]
With self driving cars population on roads increasing, a side effect can be that all traffic will be shaped towards staying within the speed limits. With more cars staying within the limits, breaking the limits becomes more difficult.
26. kirubakaran ◴[] No.45903601{3}[source]
To the extent that it's rational, it's more about acceleration than velocity
replies(1): >>45904428 #
27. potato3732842 ◴[] No.45903661[source]
The omnipresent threat of being splattered by someone who's weaving lanes or distracted by their phone and not expecting to see a vehicle doing 20mph (!!!!) below traffic speed is exactly what I want when I'm in a taxi. /s

If you actually thought adoption would benefit us on it's own rather than seeing it a roundabout way to enforce rules that you want to see enforced without buy in from the public you'd want these cars to behave in a way that makes it easier for them to exist in typical traffic.

28. potato3732842 ◴[] No.45903679{3}[source]
First to apply brake, not first to detect.

Normal human drivers tend to lift off the gas and only brake when they decide that just lifting won't do.

replies(1): >>45904550 #
29. robocat ◴[] No.45903823{4}[source]
I'd really love to see some good statistics on the risks of speeding on motorways.

I often wonder about laws that are ostensibly there to prevent dangerous actions, about whether they actually help prevent dangerous driving.

This guy analyses tailgating: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6n_lR09sjoU Awesome software although he seems biased (e.g. no mention of pedestrians), but he does say that tailgating is much more dangerous than speeding.

I'm interested whether cameras will start to catch dangerous drivers. I regularly seeing drivers do very dangerous things. Yet we have no easy way to train them (for those that care but are unaware), or catch them (for the antisocial that don't care).

replies(1): >>45905593 #
30. ◴[] No.45903832[source]
31. sib ◴[] No.45903920[source]
Have you driven in LA? Traffic speed is generally bimodal: either stuck in traffic jam or easily 15 mph above the limit. (Source: live in LA, drive regularly.)
replies(1): >>45908335 #
32. sib ◴[] No.45903931{3}[source]
A sports car on the roads through the Malibu hills is very fun...
replies(1): >>45905258 #
33. toast0 ◴[] No.45904072{4}[source]
> Isn’t the situation you’re describing where speeds vary due to queues going to be in heavy traffic where cars aren’t getting close to the speed limit anyway?

Not necessarily. I've seen things like the left two lanes at free flow (speed limit or above) and the right two lanes at full congestion (~ 10 mph), and the middle lane(s) somewhere in between. But then you also have sometimes where the left lane is only doing 60 for some reason, but the next two lanes are at or above the speed limits. It's a complex system.

Wrong side exits for interchanges between highways are common, depending on site details and relative flows. When there's congestion on a left exit, you then get situations where the right lanes are flowing faster than the left lanes (sometimes much faster). I don't think interchanges as left exits are necessarily awful.

Wrong side exits to surface streets have been discouraged for new construction for quite some time, but there's a fair number of "legacy exits" in some areas. They're not so bad when there's only two lanes in your direction; but when there's been highway expansion, it can get pretty hard to use. And inevitably rebuilding to current standards would causes a lot of confusion and delay, it's postponed. My exemplar of the worst left exits, the Milwaukee Zoo Interchange, was rebuilt in 2012-2022 and I can't find pictures of what it was before, but you had a sizable interchange with right and left exits to other highways, combined with several surface street exits and entrances on both sides, and I think two through lanes. It was a mess.

34. djoldman ◴[] No.45904428{4}[source]
It's about acceleration + other things. If the other things didn't matter, they would just drive a Tesla Model S Plaid with 2 second 0-60mph.
35. kjkjadksj ◴[] No.45904454{3}[source]
There are car clubs that go on drives in the twisty santa monica mountains and san gabriel mountains.
36. toast0 ◴[] No.45904462[source]
While young and stupid, I did 100 mph on the 710 once. Driving home from work at 12:30 am on Monday gives opportunity for lots of speed. There's no traffic at that time of day. It was many years ago, and traffic grows with population, but still, I can't imagine there's much traffic then; I visit the area at least once a year for about a week and there's always some opportunities during the trip to travel above the speed limit, even though I'm not out very late anymore.
37. edm0nd ◴[] No.45904540[source]
I remember my buddy telling me it would sometimes take him 2 hours to go a few miles in LA traffic and sometimes he would just walk to work instead because he'd get there faster.
replies(1): >>45906498 #
38. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.45904550{4}[source]
> Normal human drivers tend to lift off the gas and only brake when they decide that just lifting won't do

Don't EVs light up the brake lights when regenerative braking engages?

replies(1): >>45905253 #
39. macintux ◴[] No.45905253{5}[source]
As best as I can tell, not universally. I'm rather obsessive about watching brake lights around me; my state doesn't have safety inspections, so I try my best to alert other drivers when they have brake lights out.

I've definitely observed Teslas coming to a halt, and the brake lights only kick on at the very end. I don't know how widespread the problem is, but it's very annoying.

replies(2): >>45906358 #>>45908362 #
40. astrange ◴[] No.45905258{4}[source]
But not as much as knowledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GIwTG8V-Ko

41. jjfoooo4 ◴[] No.45905593{5}[source]
I mean, isn't the most common reason people tailgate is that they're frustrated that a slow driver is in a lane they want to use to drive fast in?
replies(1): >>45905918 #
42. boulos ◴[] No.45905893[source]
We comply with the posted speed limits. Definitely on 101 near San Francisco where there are 55 mph zones (and maybe even 50 mph?) it's pretty noticeable. But we do hug the right lanes.
43. bluGill ◴[] No.45905918{6}[source]
Not a slow driver in most cases, many slow drivers - all who want to go faster but cannot. There is just so much traffic that you can't go faster, and neither can the person in front of you.

I used to drive 20 under all the time (I achieved 57mpg once doing that) - but since this was an empty rural highway the few cars that were around saw me well in advance and moved over and passed without a problem.

44. wagwang ◴[] No.45906032[source]
going the speed limit is actually a good thing, even on the 101
45. Yizahi ◴[] No.45906130{3}[source]
Does speed cameras not exist in the USA? If I were to drive 30% faster above the limit regularly, I would go broke over here, across the pond.
46. jeffbee ◴[] No.45906358{6}[source]
Yes this unfortunately varies by make and model. My Honda pretty much hits the lights whenever the vehicle decelerates. Others can come to a dead halt without the lights.
47. saalweachter ◴[] No.45906425[source]
It always blows my mind how aghast some people are at the idea of driving the speed limit. How dangerous they make it sound!

My dudes, I have been driving the speed limit, even on freeways, for decades.

Nothing bad happens. Your car doesn't explode. You don't instantly create thousand-car pileups.

You get passed slightly more often than when you are speeding. You pass fewer cars. You get to your destination a few minutes later.

A car going the speed limit on the freeway is not a problem.

48. asdff ◴[] No.45906498{3}[source]
2 hours for a few miles is pure hyperbole. In my experience bad highway traffic moves at like 20mph.
replies(1): >>45906703 #
49. Yizahi ◴[] No.45906634{4}[source]
First of all, while I hear about that protest first time, I'm 99% sure that they were not fines for driving under speed limit, but because of the unreasonable obstruction of the left lanes. This is prohibited probably in all countries, regardless of the limits in use.

Second, it is a widely known issue, that a slower mowing car is causing ripple-like delays far from the car itself. For example when a police car is driving inside the traffic flow. But if most of the cars are following the rules, like 95% of them, then one law abiding Waymo would fit just fine. In EU, with the deluge of speed traps and mobile patrols, most of the cars are driving under the limit, and honestly it feels fine. I'm originally from a country where +20 above was like a norm, and fast cars were +40 or more, so adjusting to EU took some effort. But now I don't even feel the need to speed, especially if it is 140km/h highway (86 m/h)

50. rkomorn ◴[] No.45906703{4}[source]
It used to take me 50 minutes to go 11 miles on 101/110 from studio city to downtown LA, so 20mph seems optimistic.

Heck, it wasn't even all that rare for it to take me 45 minutes to go 5 miles on 101 from Rengstorff Ave to Willow Rd in the Bay Area in 6pm rush hour just because of the exit.

It even once took me 2h to make it from Candlestick Park to the 101 after an NFL game.

So yeah, maybe 2 hours for a few miles isn't quite right, but I've experienced daily counterexamples to your 20mph number too.

replies(1): >>45908647 #
51. ojr ◴[] No.45907347{3}[source]
traffic in LA never got back to pre-pandemic levels, maybe during the Olympics it will other than that after 9pm until 6am there's no one on the road, which is horrible for Ridesharing drivers, the demand is less and being taken by Waymo
52. TulliusCicero ◴[] No.45907892[source]
You're framing the problem space in a way that doesn't match major freeways in the US at all. There's a bunch of lanes, and you need drivers spread out across all of them, otherwise traffic would slow to a standstill.
53. TulliusCicero ◴[] No.45907909{4}[source]
5 each way is decently big imo but it really depends on the area. A freeway near a really large metro that's particular car-dependent can easily go higher.
54. cortesoft ◴[] No.45908335{3}[source]
Yes, I drive in LA every day, since I have lived here 20 years. I literally have the 405 in my back yard. I can verify that there is always traffic on it by looking out my window.
55. foobazgt ◴[] No.45908362{6}[source]
Teslas illuminate brake lights based on deceleration (until reaching a stop), which is the desired behavior. I use regen braking aggressively to slow down, and different light behavior would give people seizures or make them brake-light-deaf.

If you're annoyed by the braking lights on a Tesla, it's because you're following too (dangerously) closely.

56. ◴[] No.45908591{3}[source]
57. asdff ◴[] No.45908647{5}[source]
Usually the backup on the 101s doesn't start until around santa monica blvd and clears up after alvarado.

That being said, you also have a heavy rail alternative.