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You can't refuse to be scanned by ICE's facial recognition app, DHS document say

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574 points nh43215rgb | 8 comments | 01 Nov 25 08:58 UTC | HN request time: 0.731s | source | bottom
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noodlesUK ◴[01 Nov 25 12:39 UTC] No.45781183[source]▶
This is going to be a huge pain. The US has a very fragmented identity system, and "move fast and break things" approaches like this to bring information from across government systems well outside the scope of what that information was collected for will result in real problems.

I worry what this app and systems like it might mean for me. I'm a US citizen, but I used to be an LPR. I never naturalized - I got my citizenship automatically by operation of law (INA 320, the child citizenship act). At some point I stopped being noodlesUK (LPR) and magically became noodlesUK (US Citizen), but not through the normal process. Presumably this means that there are entries in USCIS's systems that are orphaned, that likely indicate that I am an LPR who has abandoned their status, or at least been very bad about renewing their green card.

I fear that people in similar situations to my own might have a camera put in their face, some old database record that has no chance of being updated will be returned, and the obvious evidence in front of an officer's eyes, such as a US passport will be ignored. There are probably millions of people in similar situations to me, and millions more with even more complex statuses.

I know people who have multiple citizenships with multiple names, similar to this person: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45531721. Will these hastily deployed systems be able to cope with the complex realities of real people?

EDIT: LPR is lawful permanent resident, i.e., green card holder

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exasperaited ◴[01 Nov 25 15:43 UTC] No.45782564[source]▶
Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right?

If you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient —- that clearly is happening to British citizens -- but nobody is going to pin you to the ground until you can't breathe. We appear to be getting the benefit of some doubt (unless we have opinions).

And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway.

Perhaps carry any paperwork you need, definitely carry any medication you'll need for a few days.

As to whether the officer will ignore evidence presented: that is clearly what they are being told to do. There are lawful citizens carrying their papers with them and there's video of an ICE agent mockingly saying "what papers?"

Because on the ground it's not about immigration status really, it's about race and white power and sheer numbers of arrests to meet Stephen Miller's quotas.

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1. refurb ◴[02 Nov 25 04:48 UTC] No.45787906[source]▶
If the computer system says you are not a citizen but you produces then clearly one is wrong.

It’s no different than a US citizen having an arrest warrant but then showing the cop a final disposition from the court showing the charges were dismissed.

Whats next? It’s certainly not the cop just walking away.

You detain the person until the discrepancy can be resolved.

Are some innocent people going to be held in custody? Yes, in both cases. But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works.

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2. ◴[02 Nov 25 09:13 UTC] No.45788941[source]▶
3. 20after4 ◴[02 Nov 25 13:16 UTC] No.45790082[source]▶
In this case you're detained indefinitely and not likely to see a judge for several months at best. If you ever see the light of day again.
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4. ◴[02 Nov 25 15:34 UTC] No.45791044[source]▶
5. refurb ◴[02 Nov 25 15:36 UTC] No.45791057[source]▶
Only in extraordinary cases where immigration status can’t be proven. If your document is suspect it’s examined. You can provide additional documents and interviewed about how you obtained your status.

If you are a US citizen they can call your county that holds the birth certificate, take affidavits from parents or other family members.

I mean the fact we haven’t heard of any US citizens detained for months (as you put it) is a good indication it’s not happening because you know the media would blast that story to the top for weeks.

6. exasperaited ◴[02 Nov 25 16:53 UTC] No.45791654[source]▶
> But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works

How it works now in Trump 2.

Obama, notably, had a better approach, with a faster rate of deportation of illegal migrants, and he did so without absurd threatening intimidating cruelty, or ordering arbitrary kidnappings off the street by violent anonymised paramilitary thugs. There was a really quite high level of voluntary compliance with that system.

The only reason this is all happening is that Stephen Miller wants to beat Obama's number: it consumes him that during Trump 1 they didn't get close to the performance of ICE under Obama 2. And he wants it to be showy, threatening, arbitrary, militarised and for it to overpoweringly favour white people.

It's legitimately crazy to normalise it by framing it in normal terms like you are doing. There is nothing normal about this, nothing essential, procedure-based or unavoidable. It's an attempt to build a white police state.

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7. refurb ◴[03 Nov 25 00:31 UTC] No.45794711[source]▶
I’m sorry you’re saying under Obama when the system said someone had a deportation order and the person produced fraudulent documents ICE just threw up their hands and said “oh well!”?
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8. exasperaited ◴[03 Nov 25 01:53 UTC] No.45795154{3}[source]▶
Don’t be an idiot.

The point is that in Trump 2.0 ICE tactics have changed up from targeted raids (where a few US citizens might have had time to identify themselves as such in the process of an enforcemenr action) to untargeted sweeps where people are being dragged off the street based on their ethnicity and dumped in holding camps in other states by masked goons who are not at all interested in the process because they are literally working to quotas and bonuses.

The rate of US citizens being arrested and held for days has increased exponentially and the process no longer cares about fairness; it cares about detention, intimidation and causing fear.

This change is obvious, marked to anyone paying attention, and not remotely normal.