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183 points petalmind | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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pessimizer ◴[] No.45763648[source]
I simply do not buy any aspect of this. It is absolutely untestable. It's not just that I don't think people who can't see mental images exist, I don't think that you can prove that anyone does see mental images. It's pure introspection and self-reporting, and half of the scientists named had very odd, old-timey standards of evidence that led them to many very wrong conclusions in their fields.

I couldn't say whether I, myself, have any mental images. I wouldn't even know what it meant to see without eyes. Does that mean that I don't have mental images, or does that mean that I have them so easily that they pass without notice? Or does it mean that this is horseshit, and the consequences of it very much not profound or even detectable?

People's self-reported subjective experiences, about any subject, are almost worthless. You are even an unreliable narrator to yourself. The burden of proof lies on the people who would claim these mind ghosts, not the people that deny them. These descriptions are all so much poetry, so literary.

Eric Schwitzgebel has done a lot of work on introspection, and reminds us of things like how we thought we all dreamed in black and white before the invention of the color television, and we thought that dreaming in color was a sign of mental illness; and how blind people who experienced "blindsight" had no idea that they were reflexively echolocating until you covered their ears and tested them again.

People can have entire, sound chains of reasoning that they are only aware of the conclusions of (and unaware of the process even existing.) We are not aware of all of what we're thinking or how. Our self-perception relies as much or more on our self-images than actual recall of our experiences.

Also, going through severe trauma and saying you see the world differently afterwards is not evidence of anything. If it was brain trauma, it'd be surprising if you didn't have a different understanding of the world during and after your recovery.

I understand this will be downvoted by people who have their self-image tied up in this, or synesthesia, or any number of untestable hypothetical mental states that are painted as mysterious superpowers. I do think it helps to remind ourselves in these times how far just babbling the most likely thing can get us, now that we're in the age of LLMs. There doesn't have to be anything inside.

edit: I've been paid as an artist at times in my life, and very much like to draw, and I still have no idea if I have any mental imagery. It's just not a concept I can attach any meaning to.

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edit2: I entirely forgot that there's a specific essay on this subject by Schwitzgebel.

How Well Do We Know Our Own Conscious Experience? The Case of Visual Imagery

> Philosophers tend to assume that we have excellent knowledge of our own current conscious experience or "phenomenology". I argue that our knowledge of one aspect of our experience, the experience of visual imagery, is actually rather poor. Precedent for this position is found among the introspective psychologists of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Two main arguments are advanced toward the conclusion that our knowledge of our own imagery is poor. First, the reader is asked to form a visual image, and it is expected that answering questions about certain basic features of that experience will be difficult. If so, it seems reasonable to suppose that people could be mistaken about those basic features of their own imagery. Second, it is observed that although people give widely variable reports about their own experiences of visual imagery, differences in report do not systematically correlate with differences on tests of skills that psychologists have often supposed to require visual imagery, such as mental rotation, visual creativity, and visual memory.

https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Imagery.htm

other links:

Why Did We Think We Dreamed in Black and White? https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/DreamB&W.htm

How Well Do We Know Our Own Conscious Experience? The Case of Human Echolocation https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Echo.htm

The Unreliability of Naive Introspection https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Naive.htm

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1. swores ◴[] No.45764380[source]
> I understand this will be downvoted by people who have their self-image tied up in this, or synesthesia, or any number of untestable hypothetical mental states that are painted as mysterious superpowers.

FYI, I don't have any part of my self image related to any of this sort of thing (I never think about it except when it comes up in discussions like this, during which I briefly find it a bit interesting and then forget about it again), and I downvoted you because I think you're being confident to the point of cockiness yet talking absolute rubbish.

So please don't assume there's some biased reason behind every downvote you get for that comment, at least some of us just think you're completely wrong.

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2. pessimizer ◴[] No.45764392[source]
> you're being confident to the point of cockiness yet talking absolute rubbish.

Profound. I'm convinced. Ever consider speaking to the argument, or is this just easier?

> So please don't assume there's some biased reason behind every downvote you get for that comment, at least some of us just think you're completely wrong.

I'm guessing from the comment that you self-describe in this way? If so, why in the world would I change my assumption? I have to be honest: your taking my (confident) disbelief as an insult seems like a hit dog barking.

edit: and no degree of upset is going to make me understand what a mental image is. So apparently, I don't have them either.

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3. swores ◴[] No.45764584[source]
I obviously wasn't trying to change your mind on the main subject, since I didn't make a single argument about it. I don't have an obligation to try to explain why I think you're wrong, and I don't understand the subject well enough to be the right person to do so.

I was solely addressing your bullshit attempt to dismiss any downvotes as being people defending their own self images, by pointing out that I downvoted you without that being even slightly the reason. I used to think that what you believe was quite likely the case, and that people just have different ways of describing it, and if scientists were to prove that is indeed the case I'd be perfectly happy to change my mind again, I couldn't give a shit other than being curious to know the truth. Whether or not I can visualise things more or less than the next person is no more an important part of my self image than the exact number of hairs on my left leg is - it technically does make up a part of who I am, but not a part I'd ever bother thinking about if thinking about the subject of "me".

> "I'm guessing from the comment that you self-describe in this way?"

Your comment is confusingly worded such that I don't know what "this way" means, but no, unless someone specifically asked me how my mind works with regards to this specific subject, I wouldn't self-describe anything to do with this at all.

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4. pessimizer ◴[] No.45764730{3}[source]
I have no idea why you're concerned about my feeling about downvotes, but you're free to have it. I assumed it was a different reason, but it seems you're just concerned about me. I assure you that I'm fine.
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5. swores ◴[] No.45764771{4}[source]
I've no idea what part of my comment gave you the impression I was concerned about you in any way or had any reason to think you might not be fine, but good for you that you are! :)