Free software scares normal people

A lot of this type of stuff boils down to what you're used to.

My wife is not particularly tech savvy. She is a Linux user, however. When we started a new business, we needed certain applications that only run on Windows and since she would be at the brick and mortar location full time, I figured we could multi-purpose a new laptop for her and have her switch to Windows.

She hated it and begged for us to get a dedicated Windows laptop for that stuff so she could go back to Linux.

Some of you might suggest that she has me for tech support, which is true, but I can't actually remember the last time she asked me to troubleshoot something for her with her laptop. The occasions that do come to mind are usually hardware failure related.

Obviously the thing about generlizations is that they're never going to fit all individuals uniformly. My wife might be an edge case. But she feels at home using Linux, as it's what she's used to ... and strongly loathed using Windows when it was offered to her.

I feel that kind of way about Mac vs PC as well. I am a lifelong PC user, and also a "power user." I have extremely particular preferences when it comes to my UI and keyboard mappings and fonts and windowing features. When I was forced to use a Mac for work, I honestly considered looking for a different position because it was just that painful for me. Nothing wrong with Mac OS X, a lot of people love it. But I was 10% as productive on it when compared to what I'm used to... and I'm "old dog" enough that it was just too much change to be able to bear and work with.

Familiarity is massively undersold in the Linux desktop adoption discussion. Having desktop environments that are near 1:1 clones of the commercial platforms (preferably paired with a distribution that's designed to be bulletproof and practically never requires its user to fire up a terminal window) would go so far for making Linux viable for users sitting in the middle of the bell curve of technical capability.

It's one of those situations where "close enough" isn't. The fine details matter.

One summer in middle school our family computer failed. We bought a new motherboard from Microcenter but it didn’t come with a Windows license, so I proposed we just try Ubuntu for a while.

My mom had no trouble adjusting to it. It was all just computer to her in some ways.

What do you see as wrong or missing "fine details" in, say, Cinnamon?

Assuming that the point of comparison is Windows (since it’s a rough XP/7 analogue), any difference in behaviors, patterns, or conventions that might differ from what a long time Windows user would expect, including things that some might write off as insignificant. In particular, anything relating to the user’s muscle memory (such as key shortcuts, menu item positions, etc) needs to match.

The DE needs to be as close to a drop-in replacement as possible while remaining legally distinct. The less the user needs to relearn the better.

Same, my mom ran Linux for years in the Vista days cuz her PC was too slow for Windows. She was fine. She even preferred Libreoffice over the Office ribbon interface.

For example, practically every text box in practically every Linux system handles ctrl+backspace by deleting a word. This clashes with a Windows user's expectation that ctrl+backspace deletes a word in some system applications while inserting a small square character in others.

> When I was forced to use a Mac for work, I honestly considered looking for a different position because it was just that painful for me.

I share this aversion. I have a Mac book work sent me, sitting next to me right now, that I never use. Luckily I’m able to access the vpn via Linux and all the apps I need have web interfaces (office 365).

The main problem with this is that the commercial offerings are pretty much just bad.

Windows isn't the way it is because of some purposeful design or anything. No, it's decades of poor decisions after poor decisions. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, is intuitive on Windows. It's familiar! But it is not intuitive.

If you conform to what these commercial offerings do, you are actively making your software worse. On purpose. You're actively programming in baggage from 25 years ago... in your greenfield project.

Sometime around 2012, Windows XP started having issues on my parent's PC, so I installed Xubuntu on it (my preferred distro at the time). I told them that "it works like Windows", showed them how to check email, browse the web, play solitare, and shut down. Even the random HP printer + scanner they had worked great! I went back home 2 states away, and expected a call from them to "put it back to what it was", but it never happened. (The closest was Mom wondering why solitare (the gnome-games version) was different, then guided her on how to change the game type to klondike.)

If "it [Xubuntu] works like Windows" offended you, I'd like to point out that normies don't care about how operating system kernels are designed. You're part of the problem this simplified Handbrake UI tries to solve. Normies care about things like a start menu, and that the X in the corner closes programs. The interface is paramount for non-technical users.

I currently work in the refurb division of an e-waste recycling company.[0] Most everyone else there installs Ubuntu on laptops (we don't have the license to sell things with Windows), and I started to initially, but an error always appeared on boot. Consider unpacking it and turning it on for the first time, and an error immediately appears: would you wonder if what you just bought is already broken? I eventually settled on Linux Mint with the OEM install option.

[0] https://www.ebay.com/str/evolutionecycling

I grew up using Windows but have been using Linux and Mac almost exclusively for the past fifteen years; the only exposure I get to Windows is when I have to play tech support for my parents [1].

I hated OS X when I first used it. A lot, actually. I didn't consider leaving my job over it (I couldn't have afforded it at the time even if I had wanted to), but I did think about trying to do an ultimatum with that employer to tell them to buy me a computer with Windows or let me install Linux on the Macbook (this was 2012 so it had the Intel chip). I got let go from that job before I really got a chance (which itself is a whole strange story), but regardless I really hated macOS at the time.

It wasn't until a few years later and a couple jobs after that I ended up growing to really like macOS, when Mavericks released, and a few years later, I actually ended up getting a job at Apple and I refuse to allow anyone to run Windows in my house.

My point is, I think people can actually learn and appreciate new platforms if they're given a chance.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45708530

I don't even think that it remained very familiar aside from a taskbar (that also changed in win11) and the fact that there are desktop icons when you install things via double clicking (the double click installing also optionally changed with the Microsoft store and the msi installers are almost entirely gone these days, totally different uis pop up now). Even core things that people definitely use like the uninstallation, settings etc. ui has changed completely for the worse. Windows has also changed a lot of its core ui over the years like the taskbar, the clock, the startmenu etc. I guess one thing you could say is that it was a gradual change over many versions but everytime people hate it. Really, what Linux should have done is what Windows has done with WSL: Offer a builtin compatability layer so that you can install windows apps on linux, perhaps prompting you to enter a windows license and then it will launch those apps in a VM, even per window/app.

Mint is definitely what I recommend to people who hate windows now but are nervous about swapping to Linux. Bazzite if they’re gamers.

> Familiarity is massively undersold in the Linux desktop adoption discussion

Totally agree. My first distro was Elementary because it was sold to me as Mac-like. It’s…sort of that, but it was enough for me to stick with it and now I’ve tried 3 other distros! Elementary is still in place in my n150 server. Bazzite for my big gaming machine. Messed with Mint briefly, wasn’t for me but I appreciated what it was.

Familiarity is so important.

I agree, people can learn and appreciate if given the chance. But they've more important things to do so changing OS is just a distraction.

I know, techies love to love or hate the OS. Here there are endless threads waxing lyrical about Windows, MacOS or say dozen Linux installs. But 99% of users could care less.

It's kinda like cars. Petrol heads will talk cars for ages. Engine specs. What brand of oil. Gearbox ratios. Whereas I'm like 99% of people - I get in my car to go somewhere. Pretty much the only "feature" a car needs is to make me not worry about getting there.

So for 97% of people the "best" OS is the one they don't notice. The one that's invisible because they want to run a program, and it just runs.

The problem with switching my mom to Linux is not the OS. It's all the programs she uses. And while they might (or might not) be "equivalent" they're not the same. And I'm not interested in re-teaching her every bit of software, and she's not interested in relearning every bit of software.

She's not on "a journey" of software discovery. She has arrived. Changing now is just a waste of time she could be gardening or whatever.

The reason it'll never be the year for Linux Desktop is the same reason it's always been - it's not there already.

I mostly agree with you, though one of the few good things about Electron taking over the desktop means that an increasing number of programs are getting direct ports to Linux. A guy can dream at least.

> And I'm not interested in re-teaching her every bit of software, and she's not interested in relearning every bit of software.

I don't see Windows as having much of an edge there. Lots of things seem to change on Windows just for change's sake. I get so tired of the churn on Windows versions and finding how to disable the new crummy features. If you want to avoid relearning all the time, something simple like XFCE is going to be way better.

And Linux won't arbitrarily irrevocably brick your computer because of an automatic update. In my opinion, having your computer bricked because of an automatic update is a very large change to adapt to.

I feel the need to constantly reiterate this; if someone who works on Windows Update reads this, please consider a different career, because you are categorically terrible at your job. There are plenty of jobs out there that don't involve software engineering.

Lol, have you not noticed how every version of windows moves everything and the users are no longer able to do anything?

> And Linux won't arbitrarily irrevocably brick your computer because of an automatic update.

To the average user, it absolutely will. Unless they happen to run on particularly well-supported hardware, the days of console tinkering aren't gone, even on major distros.

What's fixable to the average Linux user and what's fixable to the average person (whose job is not to run Linux) are two very, very different things.

won't you get in trouble for using a personal device for accessing work resources?

What you're used to is definitely a huge part of it. But I do think 10-15 years ago Linux was easier to break than Windows, because it didn't make any effort to hide away the bits that let you break it. This was mainly a matter of taste. People who know what they're doing don't want to use some sanitised sandbox.

Linux was like a racing car. Raw and refined. Every control was directly connected to powerful mechanical components, like a throttle, clutch and steering rack. It did exactly what you told it to do, but to be good at it requires learning to finesse the controls. If you failed, the lessons the were delivered swiftly and harshly: you would lose traction, spin and crash.

Windows was more like a daily driver. Things were "easier", but that the cost of having less raw control and power, like a clutch with a huge dual mass flywheel. It's not like you can't break a daily driver, any experienced computer guy has surely broken Windows more than once, but you can just do more within the confines o the sandbox. Linux required you to leave.

It's different now. Distros like Ubuntu do almost everything most people want without having to leave the sandbox. The beautiful part about Linux, though, is it's still all there if you want it and nice to use if you get there, because it's build and designed by people who actually do that stuff. Nowadays I tend to agree it is mostly just what you're used to and what you've already learnt.

I too was a Windows power user. Never thought I could use macOS. It was painful to start, but ultimately it was far better than what I had on Windows. You just have to put in the work. I did this conversion after I was 50.

> I did think about trying to do an ultimatum with that employer to tell them to buy me a computer with Windows or let me install Linux on the Macbook

> I refuse to allow anyone to run Windows in my house

So you don’t care for peoples preferences unless they match your own? I don’t get that. You were in the same position. Why don’t you just let people use what they like?

> I don't see Windows as having much of an edge there.

But they specifically said it is not about OS, but about programs on this OS. There is Windows-based software that looks the same as 2 decades ago.

> Nothing wrong with Mac OS X

In fact, when I had a similar experience I ended up making a short list (which I since lost) of things that seemed terribly wrong UI wise.

True, overall Mac is just different. The issue that I have with that ecosystem is the too many people consider it "perfect" and don't even consider discussing issues and complaining about things. Every product has pluses and minuses, but if you the user "believes blindly" that "there is only one way" that is probably not good for anybody.

After a couple of weeks I adapted just fine to using the Mac, but I surely don't miss it either.

For one of my relatives, it also never happened. I installed Linux on their laptop that was having issues and explained how to browse the web and use some apps.

They always answered me "it works well".

But what I found during my next visit is a paper with a telephone number of computer helpers, and the laptop was running a fresh copy of Windows, presumably installed by these helpers.

If you run a modern distro with a modern filesystem, you can at the very least have automatic snapshots that actually work, and you can restore to a previous state if an update breaks things. The same cannot be said for Windows.

I can have whatever rules I want in my house. I am the one who would be playing tech support for all these computers if something breaks, and Windows is so utterly terrible that I will not touch it anymore.

There are only three people in my house, two of which appear to be happy with macOS and one (me) is happy with Linux.

I am not upset with the job requiring people to use macOS. That job was awful for a whole bunch of wonderful reasons, but that wasn’t one of them. If people expect me to play tech support in my house I want an OS that I understand and isn’t terrible to do it.

I think (in general) the number of machines being bricked because of an update is about a rounding error from 0.

The biggest brick event in recent times was Shockwave, not Windows. Personally I've never seen a bricked machine, not at home, not at work, not at family.

Of course my anecdata is meaningless as is your annecdata. Ymmv.

> too many people consider it "perfect" and don't even consider discussing issues and complaining about things.

That is becoming less and less true. More and more of the most ardent Apple fans have been complaining about the direction of macOS for years. Developer sentiment is low.

I've been a huge Mac fan for a decade or more, at least, and not only is Tahoe the least popular release I've seen, it's the first one where the majority of people I hear from dislike it. It's bad enough that I haven't updated still, I'm waiting a few point releases at least to see how they fix it up, and I'm trying out Linux distros to see what I'll start using if I have to move away.

I grew up with windows. Used it until after college when I was gifted a MacBook pro for dev work. I used parallels to keep a windows box close by (I think I only ever used up to Vista), but then eventually I just went full Mac and got used to the interface and key bindings. It's a fine interface, not amazing, not terrible, but I can get around. And every job I've had basically required a Mac anyway.

Years later, I built a gaming machine so obviously I needed Windows. Got Win10 and eventually upgraded to 11 and it's just so jarring how unusable it is.

In older windows I could click on my computer to see all my drives and files. Now I have no idea where it is so I just click on the little folder icon at the bottom which opens I think my home directory, then I have to click on somewhere else to see my C and D drives. I can probably make a desktop shortcut or something but point being is that it's un intuitive. And powershell is not a great terminal, and I haven't found one for windows.

SO, after learning that gaming works well on Linux, I recently switched to Ubuntu, and I haven't looked back. Gaming, AI workflows, everything I need works just perfectly, and if it doesn't I can easily customize things to work the way I want it to. I'm not treated as a criminal for installing software on my computer. It's awesome.

No, this is poison. They constantly change things, and Free Software would be racing to clone them, continually leaving familiarity behind in order to be a wonky version of the real thing. That battle is lost when it starts. Firefox was a great version of Firefox, everybody loved it (except when it locked up the entire system), nobody thought it was a knock-off of IE. Firefox then became a shit version of Chrome (I assume on Google's orders), and eventually developed into a good enough version of Chrome, shedding all of its users along the way. The Linux desktop is doing better than Firefox now.

The advantage to Free Software is that you don't have to change everything with Windows, Apple, Adobe, or Google demand you do (unless they grab control of a FOSS project, like in Firefox's case.) There are a number of writers who recommend Linux and Free software only for that reason - that once you get a workflow going, you don't want to change it according to corporate whims.

> practically never requires its user to fire up a terminal window

This can be a problem. But it will be less of a problem with LLMs. We need to encourage amateur (and proficient) Linux adopters and users to lean on AI to deal with anything giving them problems. I had an LLM walk me through updating a .deb package in MATE to match HEAD upstream, and to do it in a way that would be replaced when Debian updated the package itself. This is something I've been carefully avoiding learning for a decade, and if I had taken the effort to try to learn, it would be weeks of research and I'd have messed up the system multiple times along the way. Instead, after a few false starts, I did it and gained the knowledge to do it again.

I say this in particular because the automatic update to Windows 11 bricked my mom’s computer, or at least it required me to nuke the machine and reinstall everything from scratch. You can look at the linked post from a few levels up if you want details.

This is the second time this has happened to my family from Windows, on different computers.

Same story here. My wife is not tech savvy at all but she likes Linux because it mostly just gets out of her way and the desktop doesn't really change drastically between updates. I haven't had to help her do anything on it in over a decade except get an old PC game up with Wine.

Try looking at this another way: people who are tech savvy may be more likely to have parents who are also tech savvy when compared to the average person.

If we don’t buy that theory: There are also a lot of people who visit and comment on this site, meaning there are tons of people who have parents who have not successfully switched over to Linux. The ones who have had success are the ones speaking up, which is currently in the single digits - nothing outlandish about that.

This is no different than somebody talking about a 35mm film camera and a bunch of people jumping in with their experience with 35mm film cameras. Are you as critical/skeptical of those conversations as well? You shouldn’t be and I would be surprised if so! So the logic is basically the same.

For the record my parents do not run Linux. I could maybe vaguely see my mom getting a handle on it, but unlikely and definitely not unless she made some big commitment to do it. However, I do have a friend whose mom is a gamer using a Linux laptop. This stuff does happen!

Mac->Linux swapper here (back in April). I left after they screwed me on a hardware situation.

Honestly I’ve really enjoyed the swap. But man I really miss having iMessages across my devices as well as the shared clipboard. By far the two things I missed the most. Everything else I’ve kind of moved on from and can’t even think of off the top of my head anymore

Yeah, Apple is well-known for being completely insane on this kind of stuff—whenever someone builds an app for this, Apple immediately sets about hunting down and banning iMessage users they suspect of using it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38646903 https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/21/doj-calls-out-apple-for-br... https://www.wired.com/story/beeper-apple-imessage-fight/

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I would not give anybody good odds of booting from a snapshot on Ubuntu/ZFS.

I would expect that booting from an older kernel would work, possibly in recovery mode.

I have booted from snapshots on Ubuntu with ZFS plenty of times and it has worked fine. I've also used Snapper with btrfs and restored from backup and it's worked fine. I've also booted from snapshots in NixOS and it has worked fine. I actually cannot think of a time where any of those examples didn't work fine.

Windows system restore has never worked for me.

It's not necessary to chase, just copy what Windows users have largely agreed to be good and stick to that.

So for example, a hypothetical Windows DE could offer XP, 7, and 10 modes which the user can freely switch between which would never change. This delivers on two fronts: first, it presents a familiar, comfortable UI for the user, and second, it offers a promise that most of the popular Linux desktops do not which is that significant changes will not occur, even over long time scales.

I disagree on LLMs/terminal use. Too many things can go wrong in too many different ways for LLMs to be of much use to users for troubleshooting in many cases, and there's also the issue of the user even knowing what to ask for in the first place (even many moderately technical users aren't going to have the foggiest clue what a Debian package, MATE, HEAD, or upstream are).

The system really just needs to be engineered to 1) be extremely robust and not break in the first place 2) when it does break, have the ability to silently self-heal 99% of the time. A non-essential but excellent bonus would be 3) to be able to express what's wrong and what needs to be done to the user in that last 1%. This won't be easy to accomplish, but the first distro that does will be richly rewarded with user loyalty.

More recent Mac convert (actually gone Linux -> M1 Mac) and the initial M1 Air I bought, I naturally upgraded to Tahoe and felt that while it's pretty (and I really, really want the world to move on from Material interfaces), I did also feel the readability concerns were completely valid.

I had to return that Mac for a screen defect, and the one I now have has been kept back on Sequoia, and I'm totally fine with it and will probably stick with it until security updates stop, at which point I surely hope Tahoe is more readable.

You seem pretty informed on this stuff. Do you have any insight into why I’m hearing, at least anecdotally, a much higher failure rate among their desktop offerings over their laptops? My M1 Pro Mac Studio crapped out after 2.5 years! Anytime it went to sleep it would kernel panic and restart. It got all green with their diagnostic test, they did a full firmware refresh, literally nothing could fix it and they had no idea what it was. They wanted me to pay over $700 to replace the logic board and weren’t even sure if that would fix it. Also, the ethernet port failed after a year.

My buddy has almost the exact same story about his M1 iMac. Just under 4 years, now it crashes and forces a safe mode boot randomly. The computer can take upwards of 10 minutes to even start up. They gave him the same business, exact same repair offering, and he’s moving on like I am. I’ve got 1 other friend with a similar unfolding right now, none of these situations were with laptops.