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    Criticisms of “The Body Keeps the Score”

    (josepheverettwil.substack.com)
    250 points adityaathalye | 26 comments | | HN request time: 1.784s | source | bottom
    1. the_sleaze_ ◴[] No.45673996[source]
    > Book falls apart

    My claim: there is no psychiatric body of work that is impervious to criticism. Not a single piece of psychological science is 100% true.

    Drugs work but often don't. Therapies work but often don't. Alice's research falls apart under Bob's scrutiny.

    It's a soft science, it is what it is.

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    2. luqtas ◴[] No.45674089[source]
    we have trouble defining and detecting when someone is in a flow state. or what parts of the brain are involved in grit. heck we are even tipping the begginings on how chronic pain is processed in our brain. if some drug has a greater validity than a placebo, then it's something

    now a guy claiming direct correlation with trauma based on what you went through for some seconds/minutes right after you born? feels like some Freud and their charlatans type of shit not "soft science"

    replies(1): >>45677894 #
    3. blobbers ◴[] No.45674141[source]
    Usually if you have to add 'science' to a term its not science.
    replies(2): >>45674188 #>>45678645 #
    4. AmbroseBierce ◴[] No.45674168[source]
    There is also a strong likelihood that psychiatric findings get outdated quickly given the rapid evolution of culture, tech, communication and society in general, just 30 years ago internet was just for a few nerds and tech enthusiasts, just 3 years ago you couldn't make the computer realistically pretend to be your lover over chat messages, the landscape in which psychology has to exist that has little to do with it is so ever changing that maybe it was always bit silly to expect it to be a hard science.
    5. jdiff ◴[] No.45674188[source]
    We do that incredibly often just to refer to only one part of an incredibly broad concept of "science." Sometimes they get unique terms like "physics" or "chemistry," but not always. This is not a rule that can accurately be applied to all terms matching the pattern "____ science."
    replies(1): >>45674458 #
    6. shkkmo ◴[] No.45674191[source]
    > there is no psychiatric body of work that is impervious to criticism. Not a single piece of psychological science is 100% true.

    The scientific process is rarely perfect and levels of average levels of rigour vary between disciplines.

    However, there are quite significantly varying levels of quality and rigour in psychological studies. Your criticism seems framed to ignore this and groups the charlatans in with the actuap scientists.

    7. gr__or ◴[] No.45674199[source]
    I'd say the article makes a pretty explicit case for why the general thesis of the book does not hold, which makes your comment stand out as comparatively superficial whataboutism
    8. throw4847285 ◴[] No.45674245[source]
    There is always somebody, especially on HN, who will comment on an article debunking pop psychology, "Well that makes sense because it's all bullshit."

    I understand there is a bias towards the hard sciences here (which is somewhat odd, because the vast majority of commenters here do not practice any hard science). But I think there is extra skepticism of psychiatry and psychology (which get lumped together), and I wonder why that might be.

    Well, I have a theory, but it relies on psychology and it isn't very charitable.

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    9. lotsofpulp ◴[] No.45674258[source]
    Science involves doing experiments, collecting data, and testing hypotheses, i.e. claims are falsifiable.

    We don't have the technology to collect the necessary data to be able to test hypotheses for psychiatric and psychological phenomenoms, and even many other non brain related medical claims about the human body.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

    Seems pretty reasonable to take claims about unverifiable subjects with a grain of salt.

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    10. the_sleaze_ ◴[] No.45674317[source]
    All models are wrong. Some are useful.
    11. mbesto ◴[] No.45674330[source]
    > My claim: there is no psychiatric body of work that is impervious to criticism.

    Which makes these books all the more dangerous because the authors are overly confident about their conclusions and hence the attraction (which leads to book sales). When the unexplainable suddenly becomes explainable, the money rolls in.

    12. danaris ◴[] No.45674337[source]
    It's not a soft science.

    The problem is that too many people believe you can do research on one group of people, and generalize that universally to all humans, when in fact, the variation in every population of humans is wide enough that you can't say for certain that a given treatment will work for a given set of symptoms—not because the treatments are bad, but because there are differences both in the causes of the same symptoms, and in the workings of the body & brain, between different people.

    This doesn't make psychology/psychiatry/psychopharmacology a "soft science"; it just makes it a science that is still in its infancy. Once we have a better understanding of both the various underlying neurological/physical (and, for some, even gastrointestinal, given recent research showing that gut microbiota can affect the mood and brain) causes of various psychological symptoms, and the physical and neurological variations between people, it will be much easier to see, for instance, "ah, we shouldn't use Lorazepam for this patient, because their anxiety is caused by this which is much better treated by CBT and CBD, rather than that which Lorazepam directly addresses".

    13. antisthenes ◴[] No.45674355{3}[source]
    I only skimmed the wikipedia article, but it seems like it is missing emphasis on the biggest problem in soft sciences like psychology - the fact that a huge chunk of their data comes from self-reporting by subjects.

    It's the equivalent of basing nutrition science on a Pew poll where people self-report their favorite food.

    Sure, it's useful to know people's general preferences sometimes, but for science that data is junk.

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    14. the_af ◴[] No.45674381[source]
    I think the critique is fundamentally different from saying "it's soft science".

    It's saying "it's bad research, misquoting experts and references, drawing sloppy conclusions aimed at a lay audience".

    You can do psychology and psychiatry better than that, even if acknowledging they are not hard science.

    There's no excuse for being sloppy or outright fraudulent.

    15. DuperPower ◴[] No.45674418[source]
    soft science you say but the person better not commit suicide or starts working soon and gets better soon. The problem with psiquiatra is that there is the real biological diagnosis, the pseudo diagnosis (neurotic versión of the biological og diagnosis), the intentional fake diagnosis and the not intentional but still fake diagnosis, thats why DSM is not for regular people even if they can read the words the real clinical meaning is almost always different from what non clinical people think It is
    16. ternaryoperator ◴[] No.45674458{3}[source]
    Wait…so you’re saying computer science isn’t science? /s
    17. jimnotgym ◴[] No.45674880{3}[source]
    It is fine to be a sceptic.

    However, if you were unlucky enough to suffer with a completely debilitating mental illness, and all you have to treat it are a series of therapies that appear to work for some people, would you not try them?

    Trauma therapies like EMDR and CBT can save or transform your life. Maybe they work no better than crystal healing or prayers for some people, but if your life was derailed I bet you would try anything...

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    18. josh-sematic ◴[] No.45675583{4}[source]
    Self-reported data is subjective, but when the very thing you are studying is the self-reported subjective experiences of people then it is actually the only data you should care about. Yes “I don’t feel depressed anymore” is a subjective statement but so is “I feel depressed, can you help me?” That specific example is a caricature of course, the data are usually much more specific than “do you feel depressed?”
    19. int_19h ◴[] No.45675735[source]
    It might be a soft science but there's still a difference between that and pseudoscience, and "recovered memories" are pretty firmly in the latter bucket.

    https://greyfaction.org/wiki/bessel-van-der-kolk/

    20. throw4847285 ◴[] No.45676496{3}[source]
    The replication crisis has become a thought-terminating cliche. There is a lot of space between "this field suffers from methodological issues" and "it can be dismissed outright."

    Also, falsifiability is broadly rejected as solution to the demarcation problem.

    I honestly think a lack of grounding in philosophy of science leads people to draw the line between science and pseudo-science based on nothing but vibes. For example, I've seen people reject mainstream psychiatry as totally pseudoscience and then endorse evolutionary psychology, a field with a huge bullshit issue.

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    21. ◴[] No.45676554{4}[source]
    22. Jensson ◴[] No.45676737{4}[source]
    > For example, I've seen people reject mainstream psychiatry as totally pseudoscience and then endorse evolutionary psychology, a field with a huge bullshit issue.

    Both of those have huge bullshit issues, that is the problem with such sciences you have to pick your poison and that guy just picked another than you prefer. Big things like stereotype threat turned out to just be bullshit, but you still see people believing in it since they want to believe in the idea rather than whats actually real.

    Edit: Also almost everyone resorts to evolutionary psychology arguments when it suits them, such as why so many eats themselves fat etc.

    23. Nursie ◴[] No.45677109{4}[source]
    > would you not try them?

    Would I have to give up on my scepticism to do so? Why?

    If I was in distress, and if there was no well-proven treatment available, I'd probably have a go provided the therapy wasn't actually a scam or actively harmful. I'd probably even attempt to engage with it honestly and openly.

    But I'd temper my expectations based on the lack of reproducable evidence.

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    24. mcmoor ◴[] No.45677262{5}[source]
    > wasn't actually a scam or actively harmful

    I mean people would even try those with enough distress. And to be fair a lot of surprising innovation comes from people trying those! But of course mostly they're a scam or actively harmful.

    25. davorak ◴[] No.45677894[source]
    > now a guy claiming direct correlation with trauma based on what you went through for some seconds/minutes right after you born? feels like some Freud and their charlatans type of shit not "soft science"

    Dave Asprey made the claim according to the article not the author of the book. The only evidence I see in the article linking the claim to the book is at the end:

    > Where then could Dave have gotten this idea that he has trauma from an experience he couldn’t possibly remember? Probably Bessel van der Kolk.

    Which is pretty much nothing.

    The article does not go into why I should care what Dave Asprey thinks or does not think on trauma. For all I know it is a cherry picked example of a bad opinion disconnected from the book and typical scientific opinion.

    26. sapphicsnail ◴[] No.45678645[source]
    What we call science is short for natural science. Science just comes from the Latin word for knowledge. Different disciplines have different ways of building knowledge. That doesn't necessarily make one better or worse.