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116 points mooreds | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.015s | source
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stroebs ◴[] No.45656069[source]
My father (born in ZA) had to re-register his birth at 65 when emigrating to the UK on a visa. The ZA government had no record of his birth, despite him having a drivers license, passport, tax returns for 40+ years…

This is the least bit surprising coming from a country that is in steady decline.

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mad_tortoise ◴[] No.45657533[source]
Fascinating you say "a country that is in steady decline" when all the data of the past 29 years since the start of democracy seems to go against that statement. I hate the ANC for their corruption and other stances, but I don't let party political hate get in the way of the real basis of what is going on in the country. I'm guessing you haven't spent much time there? Whereas I have spent the past 25 years and travelled and lived extensively in South Africa.

What is your indication of decline? Some facts and figures:

- Less than 30% of the population having access to water has increased to near 100%.

- Electricity had less than 30% access and now sits around 90%

- Access to education (The matric pass rate more than doubled from 53.4 in 1995 to 82.9 in 2023) to taking that to near 100% in 29 years is pretty incredible.

- Taking 8 million people out of poverty and lower class into the middle class in that time is pretty great.

- Access to free healthcare for the entire country.

- The freedom of not being discriminated towards due to skin colour.

Yes the ANC has had an opportunity to do much greater good, but if you take in the bigger picture and understand that the white population still holds over 70% of the wealth while being 10% of the population - this is an enforced inequality that needs to be righted.

If you look at the freedoms of South Africa, it has possibly the best constitution in the world. Sure, the enforcement of the laws are not as good as the laws themselves - but the rate of improvement in my lifetime has been staggering. Even despite the setback of the Zuma years.

Even now, we have gone from an ANC dominated political landscape to a Government of National Unity, which forces different political factions to work together. Another huge milestone in the burgeoning democracy of a young country.

It is so far from perfect but if you really have spent any significant time in SA and still think it is a country in decline, then I am more inclined to think you're one of the types of expats who love to shit on something that you have no bond to, and not because your arguments are bound by facts. We must interrogate the long standing consequences of white monopoly capitals violent subjugation of South Africans in both the past and the present to paint a fair picture of the country.

Your quote " a country that is in steady decline." certainly does not paint a fair picture.

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lgleason ◴[] No.45658135[source]
The country is in decline. I have spent a lot of time there, have family who live there and can easily counter this:

- Many communities still rely on water trucks instead of water pipe infrastructure. The government loots the funds for it, meanwhile the entire system is on the verge of collapse and there are regular water shortages.

- With the electric grid, the amount of load shedding in the past few years where people are regularly without electric to 6-8 hours a day is absolutely crazy. The country didn't used to experience that. Also, cable theft is common, which wasn't an issue 30 years ago.

- 1.6 million people out of 66 million pay 76% of all taxes.

- Public healthcare in ZA is bad and not recommended by anybody who values their life.

- South Africa has more race laws today than it did during apartheid.

- It has a violent crime rate that is one of the highest in the world.

- Unemployment is high.

- It has suffered from massive underinvestment in infrastructure over the past 30 years.

- Extremely high levels of government corruption.

One thing that really brought home how the situation is in South Africa is was when I was talking to someone I know who works for a furniture company there. They used to make all of their furniture in the country, but recently started importing it from China because that is cheaper than producing it locally. Keep in mind that is with an average daily wage of $30 for a factory worker. If a country with South Africa's nature resources and inexpensive labor cannot compete with China for manufacturing furniture for the local market, it is deep trouble.

That is probably why the CEO of a local Tile Manufacturer recently said that South Africa is one of the worlds least manufacturing-friendly economies due to onerous regulation, infrastructure deterioration, energy uncertainty and rising costs.

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mad_tortoise ◴[] No.45658676[source]
- Please share which communities rely on water trucks?

- Loadshedding is no more.

- The tax issue is precisely the problem that needs redressing and is primarily because of past injustices. You're almost there.

- I have been treated in public hospitals and while not perfect the access to healthcare is impressive.

- I agree with the race laws. Your basis that SA has more race laws is gaslighting due to the fact of the homeland act. But let's not let facts get in the way.

- Violent crime rate is because why? Apartheid spatial planning. Read up and learn all about why this has re-enforced violent crime.

- Unemployment is high, yes. Doesn't mean the country is in decline.

- Corruption has hit its peak and on the way down post-Zuma years.

I have a close friend who owns a huge furniture company, and builds everything in house and grows year on year very well. So your anecdote is countered by mine.

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TimorousBestie ◴[] No.45660869[source]
> Loadshedding is no more.

I largely agree with you otherwise (viz. South Africa is on the whole improving) but on this specific point I think you’re optimistic. When summer comes round I’m pretty confident Eskom will start loadshedding again, and their public statements more or less align with this.

Regardless: not a sign of decline! Loadshedding is evidence that demand > supply, but that doesn’t imply supply is decreasing or the system as a whole is failing. On the other hand, there’s plenty of evidence that supply has steadily increased since the 90s, new facilities opening and what not. Widespread solar will only improve the situation as the tech improves.

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1. lgleason ◴[] No.45664913[source]
Actually, electricity production has gone down, while the price continues to outstrip inflation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_South_Africa

Because of this many companies are reducing staff or pulling out. https://businesstech.co.za/news/energy/837719/important-busi...

....and that's before we get into things like Transnet and SA Air. I'd love to see the country succeed, but putting your head in the sand and denying that there is a problem will not fix things.

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2. mad_tortoise ◴[] No.45679885[source]
Literally no one said there isn't a problem. No one said that. But disagreeing about a 'state of decline' when the facts of the quality of improvement of the lives of the entire population has increased over a 30 year period disputes the rhetoric of 'state of decline'. Decline from what? When Apartheid made the lives of 10% good and the lives of 90% shit?