Ask HN: How does one build large front end apps without a framework like React?

The reasons I avoid large frameworks like React, Angular, Vue, and even jQuery is that they are aren't necessary. They are code decoration that slows things down. Here is what you can expect without these:

* greater flexibility

* faster execution, My current application produces a large single page application that fully renders visually and executes state restoration in about 105ms localhost or under 200ms across a network

* faster maintenance, I can do massive refactors that touch most files in the application in about 2 hours thanks to thorough use of TypeScript interface definitions

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Here is how I do it:

1. Just start building your application. Realize that for any significant application the front end UI is probably only about 20% of the application code, or less.

2. Start the UI by writing static HTML. Reserve JavaScript, in the browser, only for handling events and state restoration and execute state restoration only on page load.

3. I prefer to use WebSockets over HTTP as much as possible for absolutely everything I can get away with. WebSockets are full-duplex, where HTTP is not, and have far less overhead. That will substantially reduce the complexity around messaging in and out of the web browser.

4. Everything after that is just execution, planning, refactoring, and feature addition.

5. You can do absolutely all of it in TypeScript now without any compile step. Node.js now executes TypeScript directly, but the browser does not. To solve for the web browser just include the browser code into your Node application using ES6 module import. If the imported code is a function you can convert it directly into a string for transport, and otherwise use JSON.stringify for objects/arrays.

Not sure how you avoid reinventing any of the component frameworks. Writing custom JS component backbone style seems tedious and error prone. Manually modifying the DOM on changes means writing the same logic several times, once for the initial render and then repeated in every event handler that has change the state of the UI. Alternatively, you might just be nuking your DOM with inner html and then running everything again through the initial rendering logic. But this isn't ideal, components loose focus, there can be glitches, and it can get slow. Not sure how you could make the type of complex UI heavy apps and have any greater flexibility or faster maintenance.

> Not sure how you avoid reinventing any of the component frameworks.

You don't do framework nonsense. That is all there is to it.

For most people writing JavaScript for employment it is absolutely impossible to imagine any universe where a couple of lines of code could be written without something that looks like a framework. That is not a limitation of the language, but rather a limitation of the given developer's imagination. The problem is thus a person problem and not a technology problem.

I do not use innerHTML because that is string parsing, and one of my critical performance steps is to avoid parsing from strings, except JSON.parse when needed.

When you're writing only a "couple lines of code", you can do pretty much anything you want. There's no real tradeoffs to discuss except in a theoretical sense, because the stakes are so small.

If the app being built is "large" (which I understand to mean, has high essential complexity), then those tradeoffs matter a lot. If the app is built by a team instead of an individual, the people problems become significant. Those can very well be turned into a technology problem. The technology (framework in this discussion) can be used, among many other things, to establish a consistent way of solving the problems in the application, which alleviates many people problems.

> When you're writing only a "couple lines of code", you can do pretty much anything you want. There's no real tradeoffs to discuss except in a theoretical sense, because the stakes are so small.

The JavaScript logic in the browser is comparatively small compared to the total application. This is absolutely more true when you remove the bloat imposed by a large framework.

Frameworks do not exist to alleviate problems for the developer. They exist to help the employer with candidate selection and training elimination to expedite hiring and firing. I can understand why a developer who is utterly reliant on the framework to do their job might think otherwise, which is a capability/dependence concern.

That you believe frameworks were invented to serve employers is a cynical point of view. I'm sorry for whatever bad experience you've had with the frameworks or people using them that caused you to develop this viewpoint.

A developer choosing to use a framework doesn't mean they are reliant on it, any more than choosing a particular language, library, text editor, tool, etc. It simply means they decided it was a helpful way to accomplish their goal, whether that's to save time, or establish consistency, eliminate categories of problems, avoid re-inventing the wheel, etc.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but you're coming off as incredibly arrogant with your strong claim that frameworks are used by those who don't know better. It's easy on the internet to vaguely gesture at "developers", but most of us are individual who've built software with real users among other demonstrated accomplishments. Strong claims require strong evidence, I hope you have the arguments to back it up.