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395 points josephcsible | 9 comments | | HN request time: 1.338s | source | bottom
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HiPhish ◴[] No.45570232[source]
We need to stop calling it "sideloading", we should call it freely installing software. The term "sideloading" makes it sound shady and hacky when in reality it is what we have been able to do on our computers since forever. These are not phones, they are computers shaped like phones, computer which we fully bought with our money, and I we shall install what we want on our own computers.
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ta1243 ◴[] No.45570698[source]
> when in reality it is what we have been able to do on our computers since forever

You do realise that's been changing right? Slowly of course, there's no single villain that James Bond could take down, or that a charistmatic leader could get elected could change. The oil tanker has been moving in that direction for decades. There are legions defending the right to run your own software, but it's a continual war of attrition.

The vast majority of people on this site (especially those who entered the industry post dot-com crash) ridicule Stallman.

"Dan would eventually find out about the free kernels, even entire free operating systems, that had existed around the turn of the century. But not only were they illegal, like debuggers—you could not install one if you had one, without knowing your computer's root password. And neither the FBI nor Microsoft Support would tell you that."

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html

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gjsman-1000 ◴[] No.45570751[source]
If you want a real blackpill (I think this is the right word), consider the famous Cathedral and the Bazaar.

I recently had a realization: I can name Cathedrals, that are 800 years old, and still standing. I can't name a single Bazaar stall more than 50 years old around any Cathedral that's still standing. The Cathedral's builders no doubt bought countless stone and food from the Bazaar, making the Bazaar very useful for building Cathedrals with, but the Bazaar was historically ephemeral.

The very title of the essay predicts failure. The very metaphor for the philosophy was broken from the start. Or, in a twisted accidentally correct way, it was the perfect metaphor for how open-source ends up as Cathedral supplies.

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1. spookie ◴[] No.45571163[source]
I fail to see the link, businesses come and go. Their software dies with them.
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2. gjsman-1000 ◴[] No.45571180[source]
Businesses die. Cathedrals don't. IBM is 114 years old. Microsoft is 50. Google is 27. Disney is 101. Nintendo is 136 (they'll outlive Steam and the next nuclear war at this rate). The COBOL running banks is 65 years old. Windows NT architecture is 32. The platforms become infrastructure, too embedded to replace.

How many bazaar projects from even 10 years ago are still maintained? Go through GitHub's trending repos from 2015. Most are abandoned. The successes transform - GitLab, Linux, Kubernetes, more Cathedral than Bazaar.

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3. mariusor ◴[] No.45571638[source]
Any of the BSDs (well 2BSD is the oldest on a quick search), the linux project, the GNU C lib and GCC, etc. Just because you can't think of it, it does not mean it doesn't exist.
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4. iamnothere ◴[] No.45571683[source]
> How many bazaar projects from even 10 years ago are still maintained?

Uhh, all the big ones in common use? GNU’s massive portfolio of software, Linux, multiple BSDs, Apache, Firefox, BusyBox, PHP, Perl, the many lineages of StarOffice, LaTeX, Debian, vim, fish, tmux, I mean this barely scratches the surface. Are you kidding me?

How many startups have failed over the last decade? I would argue that the norm is for any project to eventually cease. Only useful things with an active community (whether that community is for-profit or not) tend to last, until they are no longer valued enough to maintain. This goes for things in the physical world just as it does for software.

5. gjsman-1000 ◴[] No.45571685{3}[source]
> Any of the BSDs (well 2BSD is the oldest on a quick search), the linux project, the GNU C lib, etc. Just because you can't think of it, it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Did BSD defeat Linux? No. Which BSD is even the right one? BSD's biggest success is living on as the foundation of Apple's Cathedral in XNU, and PlayStation's Cathedral in the PS4 and PS5.

Did Linux stay a bazaar vendor? No - 90% of code has been corporate contributed since 2004. Less than 3% of the Linux Foundation budget goes towards kernel development. Linux is a Cathedral, by every definition, and only exists today because Cathedrals invest in it for collective benefit. It's a Cathedral, run as a Cathedral joint venture, to be abandoned if a better thing for the investing Cathedrals ever came along.

GCC? Being clobbered by Clang. Less relevant every year. Same with GNU coreutils, slowly getting killed by uutils.

Firefox? Firefox only still exists because a Cathedral called Google funds it.

LibreOffice, Apache, PHP, Blender? Professional foundations that get very picky about who is allowed to contribute what. They aren't amateurs and they all depend on Cathedral funding. Blender only got good when it started collecting checks from Qualcomm, NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, and Adobe. Blender is a Cathedral funded by Cathedrals.

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6. mariusor ◴[] No.45571813{4}[source]
I feel like you're moving the goal posts and using the greed caliper for measuring open-source success. Open-source doesn't need "to win", because as long as they have developers, projects go on, and as long as they have any users they are still relevant.
7. iamnothere ◴[] No.45571840{4}[source]
Wtf is a bazaar vendor? A bazaar-style project is a project with a variety of contributors who aren’t necessarily affiliated with a central org, where decisions are made at least partially through consensus. Linux still fits this description although it’s more of a hybrid model at the moment, as decision-making is highly centralized. But as a free/open source project, that centralization exists with implicit community consensus. If a substantial portion of the community decided that Linus and his team were making poor decisions, a fork would emerge. This process of periodic de-/re-centralization is a common attribute of many long-term FOSS projects and is usually not possible with proprietary software, absent generosity or neglect from IP “owners”.
8. wkat4242 ◴[] No.45572052{4}[source]
That's such an American take. Something doesn't have to be a "winner" to be useful. I enjoy using FreeBSD on my desktop and I don't care about the 0.01% marketshare.

I really dislike all the corporate involvement in Linux. I don't believe in win-win with commercial. That was the main reason for my choice though there's other things I like too such as full ZFS support and great documentation.

9. dandellion ◴[] No.45573258[source]
I we're doing bad analogies my mom's open source duck recipe has been around for hundreds of years.