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525 points alex77456 | 7 comments | | HN request time: 1.162s | source | bottom
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jjgreen ◴[] No.45385121[source]
Before the election I was approached by a bubbly young woman who tried to persuade me to vote Labour: "No thanks, last time I did that they tried to introduce ID cards", "But that's not in our manifesto" she replied, "It wasn't the last time I voted for them either".

It gives me no pleasure to be right on this.

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celticninja ◴[] No.45385315[source]
Could you explain what it is you find so distasteful about ID cards?

I mean if you have a passport then you already have an 'ID card', but I certainly don't want to take that out with me to prove my age.

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1. pjc50 ◴[] No.45385512[source]
It all depends on exactly when they're mandatory and what tracking is associated with them.

My own personal thinking has evolved on the subject since I campaigned against ID cards under Blair ("no2id"). It is a question of trust and purpose. Things like the Estonian digital identity scheme do not seem to be bad in practice. The problem comes from identity checkpoints, which serve as an opportunity for inconvenience, surveillance, and negligence by the authorities.

Remember the "computer is never wrong" Fujitsu scandal? The Windrush fiasco (itself a story of identity and records)?

And anything born of an immigration crackdown is coming out of the gate with a declared intention to be paranoid and authoritarian.

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2. jodrellblank ◴[] No.45389939[source]
> "Remember the "computer is never wrong" Fujitsu scandal?"

For anyone outside the UK who doesn't know this reference, the UK Post Office (originally the state postal system, privatised by this time) paid Fujitsu to build a computer system. It had bugs which made it look like money was going missing. The bugs were reported, and ignored. The Post Office prosecuted employees for theft and fraud over sixteen years, ruining hundreds of lives and reputations, sending hundreds of people to prison, and causing some suicides.

It eventually came out as an investigative journalism story that the system was at fault, the people were innocent, and the Post Office knew about the bugs right from the start and had been hiding them from the police/courts. "In 2024, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak described the scandal as one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in British history" that's almost 10 years after it ended and 25 years after it started, rather too late to undo all the harm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

3. ascorbic ◴[] No.45390650[source]
I've had a very similar journey. I also campaigned against them, rejoiced when the hard drives were shredded after the election. I am now less worried. The devil is in the detail, and the issue last time was in the database rather than the cards. That said, I think since then we have bigger concerns, and if an ID app alleviates some concerns about immigration then I'm fine with it. One big thing that has happened since then is GDS – the various GOV.UK apps tend to be actually good. I recently used the new GOV.UK One Login app to renew my driving licence and it was impressively good.
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4. card_zero ◴[] No.45392645[source]
I dug up some antique privacy anxiety from Duncan Campbell in 1986, about the National Insurance numbercards introduced in 1984.

https://archive.org/details/onrecordsurveill0000camp/page/88...

It's an interesting museum piece.

> Through this new network, much personal information which the individual has to provide, for example to claim a benefit, or to an employer - will be routed through successive computers to wind up on a ‘central index’. Even if no new law is passed, the effect of the system will be to create a national population register which each individual is obliged to inform of changes of name and address (and often a great deal more). Moreover, by the same time, the majority of adults (on present plans) will have been issued with a National Insurance (NI) ‘Numbercard’, laying an easy basis for the future introduction of a national identity-card system.

> Since the start of 1984, a NI Numbercard - resembling a standard plastic credit card, complete with signature space and a magnetic strip encoding the bearer’s name and number — has been issued to everyone reaching the age of 16, and to anyone else registering in the NI system for the first time or applying for a new card.

> Eventually, the cards could be used in automatic readers, similar to the present automatic telling machines (ATMs, or cash dispensers) installed by most banks.

> Despite government claims to the contrary, the Lindop committee concluded that the British NI number was already close to being used as a personal identity system. Although no further government proposals have been made for the use of the NI Numbercard, it is fairly certain that - for benefit claimants at least - its carrying will become obligatory. It did not take long for suggestions about compulsory carrying of NI cards to creep into public discussion. In August 1984, in what NCCL called the ‘thin end of a nasty wedge’, the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons suggested that casual workers should be issued with the new Numbercards and required to produce their cards when being paid - so that information about payments made to them could be collated successfully by the Inland Revenue.

Here's also a picture of the thing in an advert in Smash Hits:

https://archive.org/details/smash-hits-5-18-june-1985/page/n...

I think they got rid of the magnetic strip at some point, and it never became mandatory to carry them or show them.

5. eesmith ◴[] No.45393741[source]
> and if an ID app alleviates some concerns about immigration then I'm fine with it

It won't.

The US border is now locked down far tighter than it ever was when I was a kid, and the cries for locking it down even more and violently apprehending suspected violators are at a fever pitch. The UK too - like many countries in the recent rightward lurch - has gone from a country where I can just show up to visit to one when were I need to request permission beforehand.

It sure seems like the "concerns about immigration" in the UK mirror those in the US, which in my analysis is a reaction towards the loss of white privilege combined with the loss of economic power. Putting stricter id checks may assuage abstract xenophobia, but the concrete details don't fundamentally change the concrete details.

It's not like Brexit fixed those concerns about immigration.

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6. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.45394161{3}[source]
> It's not like Brexit fixed those concerns about immigration

If anything, Brexit has exacerbated control over immigration as we can no longer access shared information with e.g. France.

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7. eesmith ◴[] No.45395416{4}[source]
Exactly. Before Brexit people wanted it because they thought, quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit:

'Opinion polls found that Leave voters believed leaving the EU was "more likely to bring about a better immigration system, improved border controls, a fairer welfare system, better quality of life, and the ability to control our own laws"'

Doesn't seem to have helped, has it?

So a justification based on a premise of alleviating some concerns about immigration has a long historical trail of failures behind it, as I'm sure the Windrush generation can share. The US and Canadian citizens along what was once pridefully called the world's longest unprotected border have also their misgivings.

As I read here, the UK passed the law that required employers to check employee eligibility. I'm sure that was meant to alleviate xenophobic concerns. Why wasn't that enough?