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1502 points JustSkyfall | 29 comments | | HN request time: 2.877s | source | bottom
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casq ◴[] No.45285280[source]
Hi, I’m Christina, cofounder of Hack Club. We just announced this news to our community, and this post is from one of the teenagers in Hack Club. It’s an accurate description of what’s happened, and we’re grateful to them for posting. Slack changed the terms of a special deal we were given last year to charge us for staff and volunteers (not for every teenager coding), and we built programs around that special rate. Then this spring they changed the terms to every single user without telling us or sending a new contract, and then ignored our outreach and delayed us and told us to ignore the bill and not to pay as late as Aug 29

Then, suddenly, they called us 2 days ago and said they are going to de-activate the Hack Club Slack, including all message history from 11 years, unless we pay them $50,000 USD this week and $200,000 USD/year moving forward (plus additional annual fees for new accounts, including inactive ones)

For anyone reading this, we would really appreciate any way to contact people at Salesforce to discuss time to migrate because deactivating us in 5 days destroys all the work of thousands of teen coders at Hack Club and alum unnecessarily. We are not asking for anything for free. This was an underhanded process by the sales team to raise our rate exorbitantly from a qualified educational 501(c)(3) charity serving young developers or destroy all their projects, DMs and work forever. If Salesforce’s goals have changed- ok. Give us a reasonable amount of time to migrate- and don’t club us over the head like this. We have had an 11 year great relationship with Slack- and have introduced the company to many many future engineers and founders. My email if you can help us: christina@hackclub.com

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1. actionfromafar ◴[] No.45287173[source]
Thousands of teen coders now hate Salesforce in advance. This is very shortsighted.
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2. dotancohen ◴[] No.45287199[source]
Though maybe one of the better lessons they could have learned in such a course.
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3. actionfromafar ◴[] No.45287227[source]
Hey, I think we agree on something.
4. mihaaly ◴[] No.45287413[source]
I believe thousands more adults are now hating it too, also reconsidering any current and potential dealings with them seeing their way of conduct. If not for the sake of righteousness, but for the sake of self interest (not to be extorted in the future by an organization prone to exploitation and extortion).
5. safety1st ◴[] No.45287424[source]
You would think that making your users hate you is shortsighted, yes. But does it really matter?

I urge every user of Hacker News to read Peter Thiel's book, Zero to One. It's the definitive statement on software capitalism.

The goal, which Thiel embraces unabashedly, is to use technology to create new and unique monopolies, and once you've created them, extract as much rent as possible from the users. Obviously the users hate that part once it kicks in.

Thiel really seems to believe this is a good thing and there's a sense in which he's right: the tech industry has created more gadgets and created (or consumed?) a level of economic activity on par with industrialization itself. We have been introduced to all manner of innovations and conveniences, and the winners at this game have won bigger than anybody else.

But it is undoubtedly anti-consumer and anti-user. They give you something good, you get hooked, and then they enshittify it once you can't get out, and it's all part of the plan. Again, and again, and again, for more than 40 years now.

That's why once you're done with Thiel, you should read the GNU Manifesto. Richard Stallman identified the basic dynamics here as far back as the 1980s, and started his movement from the perspective of a user of computer systems who didn't want everything to be trapped and enshittified once again. By encouraging programmers to adopt the GNU license he aimed to prevent the rent seeking stage of this process.

Both camps succeeded partially. Thiel's camp succeeded more, especially economically. Which camp you join is up to you when you write a line of code or you use a piece of software. I personally think the world is complicated and there are elements of value in both. Regardless these are the two written works which together will give you the full context about the software industry, how it works, how it got this way, and even why modern life is the way it is.

And then you will see how it is by design for Salesforce to fuck nonprofits because it works. It was in the plan from day one. They knew. They will do it again.

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6. amelius ◴[] No.45287569[source]
Yes, they earned their Stallman degree.
7. gregw2 ◴[] No.45287618[source]
Salesforce... working hard to become the SaaS-era equivalent of mid-90s "Computer Associates" (CA) ...

(Regarding acquisitions of Heroic, Sendgrid, Slack, Tableau, Mulesoft, and most recently Informatica...)

For those less-familiar with the reference, the Wikipedia entry[1] tells it well:

In 2001, The New York Times wrote that "Computer Associates has infuriated clients with high prices and poor technical support." Fortune wrote, "For all its ubiquity inside the tech departments of corporate America, CA had a horrendous reputation. Where Microsoft has long been the most feared software company, the old CA claimed the title of most despised – not by competitors but by its own customers."

Detractors of CA accused it of putting newly acquired software products into maintenance mode and milking them for cash flow. The products themselves were expensive and central to what corporate IT departments were doing, and so customers found it difficult to move away from CA. As Fortune wrote, "These products made it the barnacle of corporate America: Once you had CA software onboard, it was so onerous and expensive to pull it out that few customers ever did. That led to a lot of steady cash flow – and to arrogance on the part of CA's management." Or as The Register wrote, "CA used acquisitions to grow its portfolio.... Along the way it acquired a reputation as the place decent software goes to die."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CA_Technologies

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8. actionfromafar ◴[] No.45287678[source]
I think it's slightly worse. They didn't even have to know from day one. The incentives are such that it's easy to just over time roll into that (local?) optimum.
9. luckman212 ◴[] No.45287894[source]
Wait, there are people who actually don't hate Salesforce?
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10. ipython ◴[] No.45287949[source]
Just wait till they learn about Broadcom!
11. AbstractH24 ◴[] No.45287960[source]
Salesforce either knows exactly want it’s doing or it’s in an epic doom loop.

On the one hand, Turing their back on pretty much everything everyone liked about it because could be seen short sighted, and it will crumble.

Or an intentional pivot. Knowing a subset is locked in and can be exploited to grow in new directions.

Either way, the shift is kind of epic. And only seems to be gaining steam.

12. eru ◴[] No.45288035[source]
People who haven't heard of them generally don't have an opinion on them.
13. artk42 ◴[] No.45288037[source]
This is awesome, honestly. The more monopolists f_ck up, the cleaner the future to be built.
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14. eru ◴[] No.45288068[source]
The book Zero to One has pretty questionable economics.

I'm paraphrasing here, it's been a long time, but his thesis is that in a competitive situation life of a company is nasty, brutish and short. And that might be true, but that doesn't mean that life for customers or shareholders or workers is anything like that.

Part of why companies have it so hard in harsh competition is that they have to pay workers well in order to attract them, and they have to offer customers real value for money (if they want to keep getting their money), and companies also have to give decent returns to shareholders.

15. bauruine ◴[] No.45288093[source]
>On July 11, 2018, Broadcom Inc. announced it would acquire CA Technologies for $18.9 billion in cash.

I'm not surprised. That sounds exactly like Broadcom.

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16. Aeolun ◴[] No.45288157[source]
Are there any coders that like salesforce in the first place? This is firmly one of those ‘foisted on you by management’ kind of products right?
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17. Aeolun ◴[] No.45288168{3}[source]
You’d think they failed based on the description given earlier. But that doesn’t sound like failure to me…
18. ZiiS ◴[] No.45288179[source]
Just seems more efficient to me.
19. matwood ◴[] No.45288236[source]
My sales people love it.
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20. bombcar ◴[] No.45288266[source]
If you look at Salesforce as "Access as a SaaS" it's not so bad.

But if you're coming at it from a LAMP stack or otherwise having direct access to a real SQL database designed by intelligent people, it's pretty meh.

21. felipelemos ◴[] No.45288280[source]
> But does it really matter?

I am pretty sure - if his theories works - it would be really good for accumulating even more capital for the shareholders.

And I am also pretty sure it, at least for me, will not matter at all, and it will be really bad for everyone else involved.

22. xedrac ◴[] No.45288400[source]
Haven't you heard? Sales force doesn't hire programmers anymore. AI is all their CEO needs. ;p. Seriously though, this behavior reminds me of Oracle, and is a great reminder that proprietary software can very quickly become a big liability.
23. jmclnx ◴[] No.45288422{3}[source]
Same where I use to work, and upper mang. is scared to remove it due to sales people revolting. They tried years ago and a revolt happened and the cancelled they project.

This is at a fortune 500 company.

24. AndyMcConachie ◴[] No.45288425[source]
What better lesson could there be? Learn to hate corporate America early so you're not disabused later in life.
25. alexey-salmin ◴[] No.45288428[source]
That doesn't really matter: Salesforce is not a technology company, it's a sales company. They need to win the loyalty of procurement decision makers, then engineers will have to use whatever the business people were sold. Exceptions are small tech-first companies where the engineers directly decide on tools.
26. Tade0 ◴[] No.45288451[source]
I know a few people who've made good money immersing their hands in this pile of rich manure as consultants, so I guess it all comes down to what you individually are willing to do for some cash.
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27. loloquwowndueo ◴[] No.45288492{3}[source]
Makes me filthy rich doesn’t imply I like it.
28. thrance ◴[] No.45288497[source]
Monopolies aren't generally undone by their anti-consumer practices. Believing Salesforce will suffer from this egregious behavior is wishful thinking.
29. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45288523[source]
I have anecdotally heard good things about Benioff, as a person.

But then, I've also heard good things said about Elon, as a person, so take it with a grain of salt, I guess...