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1332 points Qem | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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therobots927 ◴[] No.45266704[source]
I for one will be holding my representatives responsible who continue to vote for the US to enable a genocide. The videos coming out of Gaza have turned me and many others into single issue voters.
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beloch ◴[] No.45267542[source]
Flipping the U.S. really is the key to ending this conflict. The U.S. reliably uses its security council veto to nix any meaningful UN response and the U.S. remains, by far, the biggest supplier of arms to the IDF. If the US were to stop veto'ing everything and cut off the IDF's supply of, at least, some types of weapons, the new ground assault would likely end quickly.

Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen. Netanyahu has, to date, handled Trump deftly and Rubio's current presence in Israel seems to be aimed at offering support to the ground offensive, not opposition. I honestly have no idea what kind of backlash it would take to shake U.S. support for this genocide.

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dlubarov ◴[] No.45268075[source]
Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.
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DiogenesKynikos ◴[] No.45272183[source]
As long as Israel controls the lives of millions of Palestinians who have no rights and who are treated like trash, there will be conflict.

In order to be effective, US pressure would have to be aimed at forcing Israel to do one of two things:

1. Withdraw its military from the Palestinian territories (East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza), dismantle all of its illegal settlements there, and recognize a fully sovereign Palestinian state. This is basically asking Israel to give up its dreams of taking over the Palestinian territories and to withdraw to its own borders - a simple ask.

2. Alternatively, Israel gets to keep the Palestinian territories, but it has to grant full, equal citizenship to the Palestinians who live there. That would mean that 50% of the Israeli electorate would be Palestinian, effectively ending the Jewish nature of the state of Israel. The next prime minister could be a Palestinian - who knows?

Israel has held onto the Palestinian territories for nearly 60 years without granting the people who live there (except for Israeli settlers) any rights. It has to either leave the occupied territories or grant everyone who lives under its control equal rights. It's actually quite a simple and reasonable demand.

Right now, because of unconditional US support, Israel has no incentive to do either of the above. Israel's leaders correctly believe that they can have it all: they can keep the land without granting the Palestinians who live there any rights. They operate with complete impunity. The US could end that impunity and impose real costs on Israel for its actions.

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tayo42 ◴[] No.45272485[source]
Your ignoring or forgetting that Palestinians don't want either of those solutions, and that's a core part of the conflict.
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DiogenesKynikos ◴[] No.45273213[source]
The Palestinians pursued a 2-state solution (option 1 above) for over two decades. It failed largely because of dead-set opposition from the Israeli right (thanks Netanyahu) and because even the Israeli center-left was unwilling to fully withdraw to Israel's internationally recognized borders and recognize a fully sovereign Palestinian state. There were always demands to keep large chunks of territory (most critically in East Jerusalem) and maintain effective control over any future Palestinian semi-state.

Both options laid out above (the 2-state and 1-state solution) are vastly better for the Palestinians than living under permanent Israeli military occupation with no rights, and subjected to continuous violence from the Israelis. It would not be the Palestinians who would block these types of solutions, were they actually on offer.

The Israelis have a near monopoly on force in this conflict. They are the overwhelmingly dominant party, the only one with tanks, aircraft, destroyers and nuclear weapons. They have the power to dictate solutions, and that's what they've been doing for decades, using brute force. Pretending these are two equal sides that just can't agree is a fantasy.

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1. tguvot ◴[] No.45279257{3}[source]
fyi, netanyahu signed follow up to oslo agreements, he handed over more areas of west bank to PA and he voted for disengagement from Gaza. He also expressed support for 2 state solution. Gaza disengagement was voted for and executed by Likud.

The only one who pursued 2 state solution is Israel.

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2. DiogenesKynikos ◴[] No.45286101[source]
There is a video from 2001 of Netanyahu explaining in private (he didn't know he was being filmed) exactly how he intentionally sabotaged the Oslo peace process during the 1990s.[0]

> he handed over more areas of west bank to PA

As Netanyahu explains in the video, he only handed over a small piece of territory, in exchange for a letter from the US saying that Israel could define "security zones" in the West Bank that would remain under Israeli control. That allowed Netanyahu to declare everything a security zone, blocking all future withdrawals. Netanyahu boasts in the video that he gave up a tiny piece of land to end the piece process and prevent there from ever being a Palestinian state.

In the years since, Netanyahu has repeatedly boasted that he's the one who prevented the creation of a Palestinian state. The founding charter of his party literally says that everything from the river to the sea should be Israel.

0. https://youtu.be/UzA04I3klkY?si=-Lm0ey7dsJSsWzZ5

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3. tguvot ◴[] No.45286681[source]
He didn't sabotage oslo peace process he found a loophole that allowed him not to withdrawal from some of the territory in west bank prior to final settlement of borders.

video from 2001. Bibi is not PM for 2 years already, and in 2000 there was camp david which could give palestinians state (they refused it, and started intifada instead). there were more negotiations that palestinians refused.

bibi boasting about something ? sure he does. he wants to appeal to electors. doesn't mean that he sabotaged anything.

and on topic of killing oslo peace process, i'll suggest you this lovely document from just after camp david that describes how palestians worked on implementing it: http://israelvisit.co.il/BehindTheNews/WhitePaper.htm . and in general to review second intifada