←back to thread

1208 points jamesberthoty | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
Show context
kelnos ◴[] No.45266878[source]
As a user of npm-hosted packages in my own projects, I'm not really sure what to do to protect myself. It's not feasible for me to audit every single one of my dependencies, and every one of my dependencies' dependencies, and so on. Even if I had the time to do that, I'm not a typescript/javascript expert, and I'm certain there are a lot of obfuscated things that an attacker could do that I wouldn't realize was embedded malware.

One thing I was thinking of was sort of a "delayed" mode to updating my own dependencies. The idea is that when I want to update my dependencies, instead of updating to the absolute latest version available of everything, it updates to versions that were released no more than some configurable amount of time ago. As a maintainer, I could decide that a package that's been out in the wild for at least 6 weeks is less likely to have unnoticed malware in it than one that was released just yesterday.

Obviously this is not a perfect fix, as there's no guarantee that the delay time I specify is enough for any particular package. And I'd want the tool to present me with options sometimes: e.g. if my current version of a dep has a vulnerability, and the fix for it came out a few days ago, I might choose to update to it (better eliminate the known vulnerability than refuse to update for fear of an unknown one) rather than wait until it's older than my threshold.

replies(35): >>45266995 #>>45267024 #>>45267360 #>>45267489 #>>45267600 #>>45267697 #>>45267722 #>>45267967 #>>45268218 #>>45268503 #>>45268654 #>>45268764 #>>45269143 #>>45269397 #>>45269398 #>>45269524 #>>45269799 #>>45269945 #>>45270082 #>>45270083 #>>45270420 #>>45270708 #>>45270917 #>>45270938 #>>45272063 #>>45272548 #>>45273074 #>>45273291 #>>45273321 #>>45273387 #>>45273513 #>>45273935 #>>45274324 #>>45275452 #>>45277692 #
wvh ◴[] No.45273513[source]
As a security guy, for years, you get laughed out of the room suggesting devs limit their dependencies and don't download half of the internet while building. You are an obstruction for making profit. And obviously reading the code does very little since modern (and especially Javascript) code just glues together frameworks and libraries, and there's no way a single human being is going to read a couple million lines of code.

There are no real solutions to the problem, except for reducing exposure somewhat by limiting yourself to a mostly frozen subset of packages that are hopefully vetted more stringently by more people.

replies(9): >>45273591 #>>45274145 #>>45274168 #>>45274297 #>>45275495 #>>45275734 #>>45276496 #>>45277631 #>>45279275 #
999900000999 ◴[] No.45274297[source]
The "solution" would be using a language with a strong standard library and then having a trusted 3rd party manually audit any approved packages.

THEN use artifactory on top of that.

That's boring and slow though. Whatever I want my packages and I want them now. Apart of the issue is the whole industry is built upon goodwill and hope.

Some 19 year old hacked together a new front end framework last week, better use it in prod because why not.

Occasionally I want to turn off my brain and just buy some shoes. The Timberland website made that nearly impossible last week. When I gave up on logging in for free shipping and just paid full price, I get an email a few days later saying they ran out of shoes.

Alright. I guess Amazon is dominant for a reason.

replies(5): >>45274427 #>>45274782 #>>45274799 #>>45275228 #>>45279075 #
silverliver ◴[] No.45274427[source]
This is the right answer. I'm willing to stick my head out and assert that languages with a "minimal" standard library are defective by design. The argument of APIs being stuck is mood with approaches like Rust's epocs or "strict mode".

Standard libraries should include everything needed to interact with modern systems. This means HTTP parsing, HTTP requests, and JSON parsing. Some laguages are excellent (like python), while some are half way there (like go), and some are just broken (Rust).

External libraries are for niche or specialized functionality. External libraries are not for functionality that is used by most modern software. To put your head in the ground and insist otherwise is madness and will lead to ridiculous outcomes like this.

replies(7): >>45275250 #>>45275311 #>>45275318 #>>45275441 #>>45275539 #>>45276844 #>>45277579 #
1. goku12 ◴[] No.45275539[source]
> This is the right answer. I'm willing to stick my head out and assert that languages with a "minimal" standard library are defective by design.

> Standard libraries should include everything needed to interact with modern systems. This means HTTP parsing, HTTP requests, and JSON parsing.

There is another way. Why not make the standard library itself pluggable? Rust has a standard library and a core library. The standard library is optional, especially for bare-metal targets.

Make the core library as light as possible, with just enough functionality to implement other libraries, including the interfaces/shims for absolutely necessary modules like allocators and basic data structures like vectors, hashmaps, etc. Then move all other stuff into the standard library. The official standard library can be minimal like the Rust standard library is now. However, we should be able to replace the official standard library with a 3rd party standard library of choice. (What I mean by standard library here is the 'base library', not the official library.) Third party standard library can be as light or as comprehensive as you might want. That also will make auditing the default codebase possible.

I don't know how realistic this is, but something similar is already there in Rust. While Rust has language features that support async programming, the actual implementation is in an external runtime like Tokio or smol. The clever bit here is that the other third party async libraries don't enforce or restrict your choice of the async runtime. The application developer can still choose whatever async runtime they want. Similarly, the 3rd party standard library must not restrict the choice of standard libraries. That means adding some interfaces in the core, as mentioned earlier.

replies(1): >>45286400 #
2. qcnguy ◴[] No.45286400[source]
This is the philosophy used by the Java world. Big parts of the standard library are plugin-based. For example, database access (JDBC), filesystem access (NIO), cryptography (JCA). The standard library defines the interfaces and sometimes provides a default implementation, but it can be extended or replaced.

It works well, but the downside of that approach is people complaining about how abstract things are.