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1208 points jamesberthoty | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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kelnos ◴[] No.45266878[source]
As a user of npm-hosted packages in my own projects, I'm not really sure what to do to protect myself. It's not feasible for me to audit every single one of my dependencies, and every one of my dependencies' dependencies, and so on. Even if I had the time to do that, I'm not a typescript/javascript expert, and I'm certain there are a lot of obfuscated things that an attacker could do that I wouldn't realize was embedded malware.

One thing I was thinking of was sort of a "delayed" mode to updating my own dependencies. The idea is that when I want to update my dependencies, instead of updating to the absolute latest version available of everything, it updates to versions that were released no more than some configurable amount of time ago. As a maintainer, I could decide that a package that's been out in the wild for at least 6 weeks is less likely to have unnoticed malware in it than one that was released just yesterday.

Obviously this is not a perfect fix, as there's no guarantee that the delay time I specify is enough for any particular package. And I'd want the tool to present me with options sometimes: e.g. if my current version of a dep has a vulnerability, and the fix for it came out a few days ago, I might choose to update to it (better eliminate the known vulnerability than refuse to update for fear of an unknown one) rather than wait until it's older than my threshold.

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gameman144 ◴[] No.45267024[source]
> It's not feasible for me to audit every single one of my dependencies, and every one of my dependencies' dependencies

I think this is a good argument for reducing your dependency count as much as possible, and keeping them to well-known and trustworthy (security-wise) creators.

"Not-invented-here" syndrome is counterproductive if you can trust all authors, but in an uncontrolled or unaudited ecosystem it's actually pretty sensible.

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Ajedi32 ◴[] No.45267054[source]
If it's not feasible to audit every single dependency, it's probably even less feasible to rewrite every single dependency from scratch. Avoiding that duplicated work is precisely why we import dependencies in the first place.
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curtisf ◴[] No.45267090[source]
This is true to the extent that you actually _use_ all of the features of a dependency.

You only need to rewrite what you use, which for many (probably most) libraries will be 1% or less of it

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zahlman ◴[] No.45267507[source]
Indeed. About 26% of the disk space for a freshly-installed copy of pip 25.2 for Python 3.13 comes from https://pypi.org/project/rich/ (and its otherwise-unneeded dependency https://pypi.org/project/Pygments/), "a Python library for rich text and beautiful formatting in the terminal", hardly any of the features of which are relevant to pip. This is in spite of an apparent manual tree-shaking effort (mostly on Pygments) — a separate installed copy of rich+Pygments is larger than pip. But even with that attempt, for example, there are hundreds of kilobytes taken up for a single giant mapping of "friendly" string names to literally thousands of emoji.

Another 20% or more is https://pypi.org/project/requests/ and its dependencies — this is an extremely popular project despite that the standard library already provides the ability to make HTTPS connections (people just hate the API that much). One of requests' dependencies is certifi, which is basically just a .pem file in Python package form. The vendored requests has not seen any tree-shaking as far as I can tell.

This sort of thing is a big part of why I'll be able to make PAPER much smaller.

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vasco ◴[] No.45270855{3}[source]
What paper?
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1. what ◴[] No.45271127{4}[source]
Presumably this: https://github.com/zahlman/paper
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2. zahlman ◴[] No.45278782[source]
Yes, that. I didn't want to be too spammy, especially since I honestly haven't been getting much of anything done recently (personal reasons).