From burner phones to decks of cards: NYC teens adjusting to the smartphone ban

There's also the symptom that almost our entire society is addicted to staring at their phones for at least 4 hours a day. Go literally ANYWHERE and just look at the people around you if you don't think so.

The counter to phone is dog.

My dog stares up at someone until they acknowledge him. Then I end up talking to the person. And everyone has a nice interaction. Usually they get a nice serotonin bump.

Yeah. As someone who spends way too much time on their phone... I'm pretty sure that I have access to all kinds of alternatives, and that I have the agency necessary to getting off my phone.

I'm pretty sure there's an awful lot more to it.

For sure, and you at least acknowledge it. As do I, I'm ashamed of my screen time reports. I feel weak.

At some point I started spending more time on my computer to reduce my phone screen time.

And the worst part is that that made sense to me for a few days.

Big screen = professional tech person. Small screen = phone addicted loser.

HN tabs open on both.

I think it is the same as with food, we just have to not get tempted. It probably would take something as radical as getting a dumbphone, DNS blocking additive sites, ditching the toilet-scroller. I'm on a website before I realize it.

Why is the exact device the problem?

20 years ago everyone on suburban trains would be looking at a newspaper, magazine or book throughout their journey. Then they would watch a couple of hours of TV at home. Why is 'looking at a phone' such a problem, when most of the looking replicates those activities, with much of the rest being basic utilities which didn't exist previously - consulting a map, ordering food or shopping, looking up timetables or schedules?

Yesterday I had a meeting with a friend and wound up having to wait 20 minutes for him. Instead of being bored out of my mind, I doom scrolled.

I remember meeting a lot of people by just talking to them in the subway during y daily commute. That happened both in France and Japan. Nowadays with phones it happens a lot less..

You're ignoring the engineered addiction to the games on phones. Loot boxes, 2 free hours of play with double bonuses, etc.

There is no engineered addiction to reading the New York Times, so people just put it down when something else wants their attention.

Looking at a phone is a problem to the extent that it cuts you off from real interactions in society. It is a problem to the extent that the attention you pay to the phone does not go toward solving real problems.

It can be a problem because it allows kids to escape from uncomfortable situations like struggling to learn something, and the Instagram-perfect view of the world makes their own lives feel inferior.

> talking to them [...] Japan

Really struggling to imagine people talking on the subway during their morning commute in Japan!! Culture changes.

> 20 years ago everyone on suburban trains would be looking at a newspaper, magazine or book throughout their journey.

Some folks did this, others chatted with the 'regulars' that they sat with that had the same schedule as them. There were television series based on this:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_48

Some folks didn't want to chat, and in the Toronto-area commuter rail there are designated zones for that:

* https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-on-go/quiet-zone

> As do I, I'm ashamed of my screen time reports. I feel weak.

While not everyone agrees with all the precepts/concepts, may be worth noting the first step:

> 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

One of the reasons 'God' ("as we understood Him") is invoked because you are admitting that you do not have it with-in you to control things (anymore) and that you need 'something' external to help you clamp down on your behaviour.

I commuted by public transit for around two decades before the ubiquity of smartphones and never experienced or witnessed this.

But the New York Times on a phone is not particularly more or less addictive than the same content on a piece of paper. Nor does reading it on a phone cut anyone off from the rest of society any more than focusing on the printed paper or a book or a Walkman.

If the problem is games, social media, or porn, why don't we identify those as social problems and try to fix them? Rather than blaming the device.

That's abominable, sir. We need you to take care of your brain :)

What you are demonstrating is that already in 2003, people talking to each other during their commute was a fantasy rather than an actual occurrence.

The addictive substance is the network,not the phone. Nobody gets addicted to any phone disconnected from the internet. OTOH, as you experienced it's easy to spend just as much time on the laptop or desktop when that has a persistent internet connection.

> There is no engineered addiction to reading the New York Times, so people just put it down when something else wants their attention.

Tell that to all the absolute news addicts out there. News is very clearly addicting, just like loot box games.

That's the problem actually. Not a second of "boredom", where there isn't something happening. Downtime is important, and I don't mean popping on the TV and vegetating until it's time to go to bed.

I had a long commute in public transport during the mid 2000s, made lots of acquaintances, even dated some girls I met on this bus. Definitely, people were more open to engage in conversation if you started it.

Oh! It definitely is, and it was engineered to make it more. The comments make sure of that, then you've got the alerts for Breaking News, the sense of urgency in animated visuals with shiny colors. Of course, the NYT in a phone is far more addicting.

Do you think the airborne drops of Operation Overlord were a fantasy because someone made a television (mini-)series on them (i.e., Band of Brothers)?

Certainly I would not take the television series as proof that they happened with regularity or in the way depicted.

bring a mechanical puzzle, or a book to read, or a lock to pick, or a tiny pocketable laptop that allows you to actually be productive, and leave the brainrot device at home, or get rid of it.

5 years free of doom scrolling and never been happier or more productive in my life.

Literally lock it in a safe for a month and see if after you recalibrate, if you are happier. Not carried a phone in 5 years and one of the best choices I ever made. Nothing you want to do in life requires you owning a phone if you are resourceful.

First thing I did to beat my addiction was keep my phone in airplane mode at all times, and just rely on wifi. After porting my number to a voip provider, i just canceled my cell phone subscription and then the device was no longer a phone, but a wifi tablet. a boring tool i could easily leave at home most of the time until I never took it with me again.

I’m confident that people watching porn on suburban trains isn’t the problem.

There is an absolutely massive difference between reading a map and scrolling tiktok. The level of engagement and entertainment social media provides is off the charts compared to what people used to distract themselves with.

Nah, the portion of people on phones vs reading newspapers/magazines/books is much higher. Most people 20 years ago didn't find enough interesting in the average paper or magazine (and didn't read for pleasure much anyway).

So it was a weak background distraction at most. Course, different places had different accepted levels of conversation - London tubes aren't chatty - but there's a difference in brain activity, patterns, anxiety, etc sitting in silence with your thoughts vs having the phone constantly trying to get "engagement" with attention-grabbing provocations.

Similarly, watching TV at home was more "background" than "constant binge." The types of shows reflect this - intentionally repetitive, fairly low stakes, things are back to normal at the end of the episode, because most people weren't so hooked that they watched the same stuff every week at the same time.

"Background phone use" is much more conversation-killing.

News doesn't get created that fast.

There's a lot of commentary addicts and such. Cable "news" started this, the internet has magnified it even more. "Screens" wouldn't be the problem if we all used them for mental enrichment, but instead they've been taken over by "engagement"-hunters trying as hard as possible to get you to see just one more ad... and then another one... and another one...

Computers still have a lot of pre-24/7-internet applications and patterns compared to phones. You can get all the brain-killing stuff on them, but you also have more options for doing interesting stuff.

(Most HN use arguing with strangers is not that. Clearly I'm guilty too.)

Ironically for the "you'll rot your brain" panic of the eighties and nineties, a lot of video games are similarly better. Invest 60 hours into a complicated game and you've worked your brain out MASSIVELY more than 60 hours scrolling or watching tiktok.

Hell, at this point making it through a pre-2000s TV show or movie can be an attention-span challenge. Where's the constant payoff every 30 seconds like with memes??

    > Looking at a phone is a problem to the extent that it cuts you off from real interactions in society.

I am confused here. Is reading the New York Times in paper form, on an e-reader, or a mobile phone different? If you are reading on a mobile phone, can you "just put it down when something else wants their attention"? Also, I was a subscriber to NYT for about 15 years, but quit about 10 years ago when the content got more and more click/rage-baity. (This is probably true of most large US newspapers.)

Final comment about paper vs digital newspapers: I much prefer paper because the adverts are print-only (no motion/animation) and there are no auto-play videos. It is much less distracting.

You spoke with "a lot" of people in Japan on the subway during your daily commute? I am stunned here. Can you provide more details? (Years / location / line?) I find this very hard to believe. Metro trains in Tokyo and Osaka (and suburbs) are basically silent except very late when people are drunk, talking with their friends.

The amount of time spent on phones is FAR greater than the time spent on all those activities you describe combined.

That would be fine but it’s not how people use phones. It’s far more time spent on addictive social media and games.

Naming the device where we consume addictive content is just a convenient shorthand.

If we just stuck to the same NY Times articles we would have read in the paper that would be fine. But very few of us have the will power to pick up our device and not wonder into social media apps.

What did you do with the other time? (Serious question)

Today, instead of 3 hours of TV at home, it's 4-6 hours of TV in 10-sec snippets at max volume on devices that are much too big

The secondhand socials are driving me nuts

May I introduce you to Factorio or Satisfactory, for example? :D

But yes, I agree. A regular computer offers more "productive" options than a phone. It's just that in my case, I'm an alt-tab away from going back to brain rot, and I am very good at hitting alt-tab.

I often leave my phone in a different room, and that's pretty effective, too.

I've started leaving my phone at home when my wife and I go places together.

It's not a problem without solutions, of course. It just takes an amount of discipline that feels unreasonably burdensome to me (as in "ugh why is this so hard?!").

Kyoto 2005 to 2008. Mostly Kintetsu and subway (mostly between Kyoto and Nara). Later keihan from demachiyanagi to shijo kawaramachi. I am the one who often initiated the conversation (apart from some osaka bachans who did initiate. I'm using that term of endearment not criticism despite their fearful reputation Osaka bachans are great). There were also significantly less tourists back then. Made a few friends with whom I still stay in touch. Also met my first wife like this.

I had the same experience of meeting people in the same way in Shanghai in 2004 (bus and subway). And before that, in France，the bus line I took near my university was filled with students.

>News doesn't get created that fast.

They are repeated many times with slightly different wording to create appearance of many news, since they aren't limited by print.

You have simply gone in the other direction: taking the television series as proof something did not happen, that it was "fantasy".

I spoke with Japanese people on the subway. They were very friendly to this gaijin.

> Nobody gets addicted to any phone disconnected from the internet.

I'm not certain about that. I remember spending enough breakout time on my iPod that I had to replace the battery.