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Memory Integrity Enforcement

(security.apple.com)
461 points circuit | 1 comments | 09 Sep 25 18:25 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
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tptacek ◴[09 Sep 25 18:51 UTC] No.45186809[source]▶
Both approaches revealed the same conclusion: Memory Integrity Enforcement vastly reduces the exploitation strategies available to attackers. Though memory corruption bugs are usually interchangeable, MIE cut off so many exploit steps at a fundamental level that it was not possible to restore the chains by swapping in new bugs. Even with substantial effort, we could not rebuild any of these chains to work around MIE. The few memory corruption effects that remained are unreliable and don’t give attackers sufficient momentum to successfully exploit these bugs.

This is great, and a bit of a buried lede. Some of the economics of mercenary spyware depend on chains with interchangeable parts, and countermeasures targeting that property directly are interesting.

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leoc ◴[09 Sep 25 20:45 UTC] No.45188753[source]▶
In terms of Apple Kremlinology, should this be seen a step towards full capability-based memory safety like CHERI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Hardware_Enhanced_R... ) or more as Apple signaling that it thinks it can get by without something like CHERI?
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pizlonator ◴[09 Sep 25 21:21 UTC] No.45189370[source]▶
MTE and CHERI are so different that it’s hard and maybe not even possible to do both at the same time (you might not have enough spare bits in a CHERI 128 bit ptr for the MTE tag)

They also imply a very different system architecture.

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quotemstr ◴[09 Sep 25 21:25 UTC] No.45189425[source]▶
> MTE and CHERI are so different that it’s hard and maybe not even possible to do both at the same time (you might not have enough spare bits in a CHERI 128 bit ptr for the MTE tag)

Why would you need MTE if you have CHERI?

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bri3d ◴[09 Sep 25 21:30 UTC] No.45189490[source]▶
Why would you need CHERI if you have working mitigations that don't demand a second bus?

I think it's two halves of the same coin and Apple chose the second half of the coin.

The two systems are largely orthogonal; I think if Apple chose to go from one to the other it will be a generational change rather than an incremental one. The advantage of MTE/MIE is you can do it incrementally by just changing the high bits the allocator supplies; CHERI requires a fundamental paradigm shift. Apple love paradigm shifts but there's no indication they're going to do one here; if they do, it will be a separate effort.

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pizlonator ◴[09 Sep 25 21:36 UTC] No.45189567{3}[source]▶
CHERI is deterministic.

That’s strictly better, in theory.

(Not sure it’s practically better. You could make an argument that it’s not.)

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1. bri3d ◴[09 Sep 25 21:43 UTC] No.45189645{4}[source]▶
FWIW (I am a nobody compared to you; I didn't make FIL-C :) ) - I think that MIE/MTE are practically superior to CHERI.

I also think this argument is compelling because one exists in millions of consumer drives, to-be-more (MTE -> MIE) and one does not.