Most active commenters
  • ChrisMarshallNY(6)

←back to thread

116 points benterix | 11 comments | | HN request time: 1.087s | source | bottom
1. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45161923[source]
A classic. I was just getting started, when he wrote that, and that kind of thinking informed a lot of my personal context, throughout my career.

I feel as if a lot of multipliers have happened that he didn't anticipate, but I also feel as if the culture of software engineering has kind of decomposed, since his day.

We seem to be getting a lot of fairly badly-done work out the door, very quickly, these days.

replies(2): >>45162030 #>>45165361 #
2. convolvatron ◴[] No.45162030[source]
I think we only got to this point because of a near-complete erosion of personal responsibility

  - agile and devops both conspire to treat developers as replaceable standins

  - we're not even really expected to hang around and see the consequences of our decisions

  - on arriving in a new organization, we're presented with a heap of trash we're asked to just sort of keep it running, certainly not to fix it

  - 'industry standard best practices' win over a well designed bespoke solution every time, developers are just expected to write a little glue at most

  - managers aren't expected to know anything about the domain at all, but to track people to make sure they did what they said they were going to 

  - speed to feature is the only metric. instability can be papered over with bodies

  - we pretty much stopped systemic testing a couple decades ago 
so given that we've been on autopilot to a vibe-coding wonderland for quite some time, I guess we shouldn't be surprised that we've reached the promised land.
replies(3): >>45162592 #>>45162852 #>>45163186 #
3. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45162592[source]
Sadly, I have to agree. I was fortunate to work for a company that absolutely insisted that I take full personal Responsibility and Accountability for my work.

I was there for almost 27 years, so had plenty of time to deal with the consequences of my decisions.

They were insane about Quality, so testing has always been a big part of my work, and still is, though I haven't been at that company for eight years.

4. readthenotes1 ◴[] No.45162852[source]
"agile and devops both conspire to treat developers as replaceable standins "

There is a lot of irony in that since the first plank of the agile manifesto is to put individuals in interactions first.

And I noticed you put the development process/structure first over the people who want to treat people as fungible.

replies(1): >>45163579 #
5. AnimalMuppet ◴[] No.45163186[source]
> 'industry standard best practices' win over a well designed bespoke solution every time, developers are just expected to write a little glue at most

Sometimes for good reason. "Well designed bespoke solutions" often turn out to be badly designed reinventions of the wheel. Industry standard best practices sometimes prevent problems that you yet know you will run into.

And sometimes they just are massively overdesigned overkill. There is a real art to knowing which is which.

replies(1): >>45163292 #
6. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45163292{3}[source]
> There is a real art to knowing which is which.

Absolutely, but that “art” is really important, and also, fairly rare.

Many folks just jam in any dependency that is a first hit in a search, with more than 50 GH stars, and a shiny Web site.

One “red flag” phrase that I’ve learned is “That’s a solved problem!”. When I hear that, I know I should be skeptical of the prescribed “solution.”

That said, there’s stuff that definitely should be delegated to better-qualified folks. One example, that I was just working on[0], is Webauthn stuff.

[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/addendum-a-server-setup/

7. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45163579{3}[source]
Well, to be fair, there's what I call "pure" Agile (as in the Manifesto), and then "real-world Agile" (what has the name, but doesn't really seem to follow the Manifesto).

I always liked the Manifesto, but it's really rather vague, and we engineers don't do "vague" so well, which leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

And authors.

And consultants.

And conference speakers.

Those are the ones that form what is eventually implemented. I'm not really sure any of the original signatories ever rolled up their sleeves, and worked to realize their vision.

It's my experience, that this is where the wheels start to come off the grand ideas.

That's one thing that I have to hand to Grady Booch. He came up with the idea, wrote it down, and then started to actually make tools to make it happen. Not sure if they really launched, but he did work to make his ideas into reality.

8. gf000 ◴[] No.45165361[source]
> I feel as if a lot of multipliers have happened that he didn't anticipate

Such as? I think his essay still stands the time that no single multiplier is even close to an order of magnitude productivity boost, with the exception of already existing code.

LLMs are possibly the biggest change to how software is developed, but they are also nowhere near this magnitude - if any - in case of more complicated software.

replies(1): >>45166219 #
9. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45166219[source]
You’re probably right, when I think about it.

I know that OOP was just getting its feet under it, when he wrote that. It turned out to have a huge multiplying effect on productivity, but also introduced a whole new universe of footguns.

Maybe if OOP had been introduced, along with some of the disciplines that evolved, it might have been a big multiplier, but that took time.

I guess, upon reflection, each of our big “productivity boosts” were really evolutionary movements, that took time to evolve.

He really was quite prescient.

replies(1): >>45173334 #
10. taffer ◴[] No.45173334{3}[source]
> It turned out to have a huge multiplying effect on productivity

In retrospect, I am highly sceptical that OOP has had any positive impact on productivity. Its popularity coincided with the advent of automatic memory management, the World Wide Web and relational databases, and later with dependency management tools such as Maven. It is much more likely that it is these factors that have improved productivity, rather than OOP.

replies(1): >>45174732 #
11. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45174732{4}[source]
No, it helped. What OOP gave us, was the ability to intelligently abstract complexity.

I’ve been coding since we used flint knives, and can tell you, from personal experience, that it did.

However, when it was introduced, it was done so, with some of the most outrageous claptrap I’ve ever heard. It came out of the starting gate, hobbled.

Those of us grizzled vets, with hype-scars, ignored that shit, and did pretty well.