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989 points acomjean | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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aeon_ai ◴[] No.45143392[source]
To be very clear on this point - this is not related to model training.

It’s important in the fair use assessment to understand that the training itself is fair use, but the pirating of the books is the issue at hand here, and is what Anthropic “whoopsied” into in acquiring the training data.

Buying used copies of books, scanning them, and training on it is fine.

Rainbows End was prescient in many ways.

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rchaud ◴[] No.45144837[source]
> Buying used copies of books, scanning them, and training on it is fine.

But nobody was ever going to that, not when there are billions in VC dollars at stake for whoever moves fastest. Everybody will simply risk the fine, which tends to not be anywhere close to enough to have a deterrent effect in the future.

That is like saying Uber would have not had any problems if they just entered into a licensing contract with taxi medallion holders. It was faster to just put unlicensed taxis on the streets and use investor money to pay fines and lobby for favorable legislation. In the same way, it was faster for Anthropic to load up their models with un-DRM'd PDFs and ePUBs from wherever instead of licensing them publisher by publisher.

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jimmaswell ◴[] No.45146407[source]
> It was faster to just put unlicensed taxis on the streets and use investor money to pay fines and lobby for favorable legislation

And thank god they did. There was no perfectly legal channel to fix the taxi cartel. Now you don't even have to use Uber in many of these places because taxis had to compete - they otherwise never would have stopped pulling the "credit card reader is broken" scam, taking long routes on purpose, and started using tech that made them more accountable to these things as well as harder for them to racially profile passengers. (They would infamously pretend not to see you if they didn't want to give you service back when you had to hail them with an IRL gesture instead of an app..)

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33MHz-i486 ◴[] No.45146717[source]
i dont know that its such a great thing in the end. Uber/Lyft is 50-100% more expensive now than taxis were before. Theyre entrenched in different ways.
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repeekad ◴[] No.45147458[source]
Did you remember to factor in well over 30% inflation in America in the past 5 years plus Uber Lyft initially losing money on rides to capture market share before they eventually had to actually breakeven?
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TeMPOraL ◴[] No.45147610[source]
> plus Uber Lyft initially losing money on rides to capture market share before they eventually had to actually breakeven?

That's typically considered to be somewhere between assholish and straight up illegal in most civilized economies.

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ghiculescu ◴[] No.45147666[source]
What law is it breaking?
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Macha ◴[] No.45147794{3}[source]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing#Legal_aspect...
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ghiculescu ◴[] No.45147809{4}[source]
In all those countries what’s illegal is abuse of a monopoly, which is not what’s being discussed here. The parent cited Uber and Lyft when they first started. Nothing is illegal about startups undercutting established competitors.
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utyop22 ◴[] No.45147914{5}[source]
No you’re missing the point.

They acquired market power by killing them through predatory pricing, leaving incumbents unprofitable and forcing them to exit - while creating a steep barrier to entry for any new comers and strategically manipulating existing riders by offering high take rates initially and subsidising rides to create artificial demand and inflate market share - then once they kicked out the incumbents, they exercised their market power to raise prices and their % of the take rate of each transaction; leaving consumers and riders worse off.

We can talk all day about the nice UX blah blah. But the reality is, financially, they could not have succeeded without a very dubious and unethical approach.

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1. kelnos ◴[] No.45148119{6}[source]
I get why we look on Uber with disdain today. They're the big rich behemoths who treat drivers poorly, previously had a CEO who was a raging asshole, and have now raised their prices (gasp!) to a level that they need to be for a sustainable business.

But I remember when I started using Uber back in 2012. It was amazing compared to every single other option out there. Yes, they entered the market in questionably-legal or often probably outright illegal ways. But illegal is not the same thing as immoral. And I don't think it's unethical to force out competition when that competition is a lazy, shitty, legally-enforced monopoly that treats its customers poorly.

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2. spwa4 ◴[] No.45148543[source]
Yes ... THAT was when governments should have stepped in and prevented uber from undercutting taxi drivers with investor money.

As pointed out here, many governments have laws stating that they will step in ... and they didn't.

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3. storf45 ◴[] No.45149175[source]
Do you feel like the taxi medallion system was a better regulatory mechanism than what is currently in place?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_medallion

4. ◴[] No.45149263[source]
5. yencabulator ◴[] No.45152949[source]
> But illegal is not the same thing as immoral.

Creating the gig economy doesn't get any moral points from me.