←back to thread

989 points acomjean | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
aeon_ai ◴[] No.45143392[source]
To be very clear on this point - this is not related to model training.

It’s important in the fair use assessment to understand that the training itself is fair use, but the pirating of the books is the issue at hand here, and is what Anthropic “whoopsied” into in acquiring the training data.

Buying used copies of books, scanning them, and training on it is fine.

Rainbows End was prescient in many ways.

replies(36): >>45143460 #>>45143461 #>>45143507 #>>45143513 #>>45143567 #>>45143731 #>>45143840 #>>45143861 #>>45144037 #>>45144244 #>>45144321 #>>45144837 #>>45144843 #>>45144845 #>>45144903 #>>45144951 #>>45145884 #>>45145907 #>>45146038 #>>45146135 #>>45146167 #>>45146218 #>>45146268 #>>45146425 #>>45146773 #>>45146935 #>>45147139 #>>45147257 #>>45147558 #>>45147682 #>>45148227 #>>45150324 #>>45150567 #>>45151562 #>>45151934 #>>45153210 #
mdp2021 ◴[] No.45144037[source]
> Buying used copies of books

It remains deranged.

Everyone has more than a right to freely have read everything is stored in a library.

(Edit: in fact initially I wrote 'is supposed to' in place of 'has more than a right to' - meaning that "knowledge is there, we made it available: you are supposed to access it, with the fullest encouragement").

replies(3): >>45144141 #>>45145658 #>>45145964 #
mvdtnz ◴[] No.45144141[source]
Huh?
replies(1): >>45144195 #
riquito ◴[] No.45144195[source]
I think he implies that because one can borrow hypothetically any book for free from a library, one could use them for legal training purposes, so the requirement of having your own copy should be moot
replies(2): >>45144399 #>>45144613 #
jazzyjackson ◴[] No.45144399[source]
Libraries aren’t just anarchist free for alls they are operating under licensing terms. Google had a big squabble with the university of Illinois Urbana Champaign research library before finally getting permission to scan the books there. Guess what, Google has the full text but books.google.com only shows previews, why is an exercise to the reader literally
replies(1): >>45144437 #
gpm ◴[] No.45144437[source]
Libraries are neither anarchist free for alls nor are they operating under licensing terms with regards to physical books.

They're merely doing what anyone is allowed to with the books that they own, loaning them out, because copyright law doesn't prohibit that, so no license is needed.

replies(1): >>45144636 #
lotsoweiners ◴[] No.45144636[source]
Yup. And if Anthropic CEO or whoever wants to drive down to the library and check out 30 books (or whatever the limit is), scan them, and then return them that is their prerogative I guess.
replies(1): >>45144704 #
mdp2021 ◴[] No.45144704[source]
Scanning (copying) is¹ not allowed. Reading is.

What is in a library, you can freely read. Find the most appropriate way. You do not need to have bought the book.

¹(Edit: or /may/ not be allowed, see posts below.)

replies(2): >>45144717 #>>45144753 #
jrockway ◴[] No.45144717[source]
There are no terms and conditions attached to library books beyond copyright law (which says nothing about scanning) and the general premise of being a library (return the book in good condition on time or pay).
replies(2): >>45144820 #>>45146290 #
1. mdp2021 ◴[] No.45144820[source]
Copyright law in the USA may be more liberal about scanning than other jurisdictions (see the parallel comment from gpm), which expressly regulate the amount of copying of material you do not own as an item.
replies(1): >>45144877 #
2. gpm ◴[] No.45144877[source]
The jurisdictions I'm familiar with all give vague fair use/fair dealing exceptions which would cover some but not all copying (including scanning) with less than clear boundaries.

I'd be interested to know if you knew of one with bright line rules delineating what is and isn't allowed.

replies(1): >>45147747 #
3. mdp2021 ◴[] No.45147747[source]
> if you knew of one with bright line rules

(I know by practice but not from the letter of the law; to give you details I should do some research and it will take time - if I will manage to I will send you an email, but I doubt I will be able to do it soon. The focus is anyway on western European Countries.)