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222 points dougb5 | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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djoldman ◴[] No.45132499[source]
Unfortunately, this kind of story will continue to be a popular one in newspapers and magazines, garnering lots of clicks. It feeds into the "everything is different now" sort of desperate helplessness people seem primed to adopt with respect to AI sometimes.

Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom. If a computer is required, it can't connect to the internet.

Caught with a cellphone, you fail the test. Caught twice you fail the class.

The non-story beatings will continue until morale and common sense improve.

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AppleBananaPie ◴[] No.45133599[source]
I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious.

High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol

Once he's grown and has a job he will one day realize and be thankful for the teachers that forced him to do the work.

Obviously not true for all students but I don't think it harms anyone inverting it but please point out if I'm wrong!

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godelski ◴[] No.45135287[source]

  > I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious.
Because that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time.

Of course, the other option is to extend school time.

Here's a good litmus test: if something seems very obvious, you're likely missing some hidden complexity.

It's not a perfect test, but if it's obvious to you and not to the people closer to the problem then there really should be alarm bells going off in your head. That feeling of "this is weird" is your brain telling you "I'm missing something" not "everyone is so dumb" (well... not mutually exclusive)

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1. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.45136676{3}[source]
> that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time

The most advanced classes I took, including in high school, made us do the reading and initial problem solving at home and then advanced problem solving in class. This was true for math, English and economics. Lectures with application combined.

But that doesn't work if students don't do the reading. Just as lectures only in class doesn't work if students aren't doing the homework. So a compromise is required--it's doing exercises live. Possibly even just one of the problems from last night's homework.

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2. godelski ◴[] No.45142467[source]
The most advanced and best classes I had were small, Socratic, and had take home tests. We were able to get through a lot of material, in a lot of depth, because people did the reading, but a big reason people did the reading is everyone liked the class and the professor (granted, this was college).

When I ended up teaching during my PhD I mimicked his style as best I could. Made my course very project based, made homeworks easy to get good grades but also included ways every student could expand on and gave lots of feedback. I like to think the students really liked me, as they would frequently stop by my office just to say hi and a bunch would show up the next term either showing me how they expanded their project or wanting to talk about how to do more or just general advice. YET only half the kids ever attended lecture, a third of kids chose to do a final project not much more complicated than homework, a few didn't turn in their final project, and 2 grad students complained to the department when I failed them for not turning in their final (they ended up being given Cs). This wasn't long ago, early GPT and tail/just post covid days.

There's just a time problem with doing the grading in class. You cannot cover as much material. An ideal class is students do reading before lecture, you go through the material together and have a healthy dialogue about where there is confusion, and then the students build on the solid foundation you created. This certainly works for high school and college, though I suspect not as well for lower levels due to lower independence. The unfortunate truth is that when teaching you're also teaching students a lot of auxiliary skills too, like time management and self-reliance. If you aren't teaching students these skills, where do you think they are going to get them? Sure, some will be able to learn them themselves, but you can't look at their success and claim victory through survivor bias.

But I don't think this is the whole problem.

I'll be honest. My experience with students, the big reason for them cheating is grades. Covid and GPT exacerbated the problems[0] (and created some new ones), but a lot stems from what was already there. We place so much emphasis on grades that this is valued more than the education itself. I've seen bright students that cheat because they feel overwhelmed. Because they know to get into the top colleges and top grad programs they need straight As. Strike that, they need a >4.0 GPA. They have to navigate the unknowns of which professors even hand out A+s, will forgo a better teacher for a teacher that gives more As, and so on. *They are not optimizing their education, they are optimizing their GPA*. Not because they don't care about their education, but because they do. Because everyone knows that the next rung of education is more important, so it is wroth forgoing some now to get access to more later. No one will say it out loud, but we all know even pretty mediocore students can play catch-up even up in undergrad and good students can do that in grad school. I'm sure if you randomly selected kids with GPAs >3.5 from high school and dropped them into your top universities you wouldn't see a big difference in outcomes[1]. I believe this stress is part of why some students just check out. But there is some aspect that is simple here: if grades didn't matter, there's no reason to cheat. I'm not saying to abandon grades, but I think it is worth reevaluating the system. I don't think patchwork solutions are gonna solve things.

All of this misses the entire point of education. Honestly, there's a larger crisis that's going on and it is that our world has just embraced Goodhart's Law as a good thing, not a warning.

[0] For example, that it is actually really difficult to punish cheaters. Any serious accusation needs serious evidence. Even more so when departments measure the amount of cheating by how many cheaters are prosecuted. That same metric hacking is why those students got Cs, just as much as it was that the chair was empathetic towards them. Part of that empathy being back connected to the importance of grades...

[1] Legacy students make this complicated but that's a whole other long conversation that mainly deals with connections.

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3. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.45146678[source]
> 2 grad students complained to the department when I failed them for not turning in their final (they ended up being given Cs)

Wat.

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4. godelski ◴[] No.45146788{3}[source]
I'd say I was surprised but my first year of grad school I was a TA and caught two kids cheating. One student accidentally (maybe needs quotes? I'm unsure tbh) had his GitHub repo set to public. Two other students found it and just copy pasted his work. We had a meeting with the professor and he yelled at them about how the syllabus says you can't copy anything off the internet. I shit you not, the students' (juniors) excuse was "I didn't know GitHub was 'on the internet'". My jaw dropped. I looked at the professor and the only way I can describe it is that this dude had to do a full reboot. Like halt and catch fire situation. I swear I saw the gears stop moving in his head as he was trying to comprehend one of the stupidest things either of us have ever heard. Professor tried to get them expelled. Best we could do is give them a 0 on the assignment. And that's how I learned about the cheating metric... In the next class the prof mentioned if we catch anyone cheating again he's going to flunk even the person that work was being copied off of. Those students didn't pass and even without saying their names I saw them get kicked out of their social circles real quick. So students knew... and man they got paranoid...

The next year, my advisor pulled me aside. He talked about how some student said they didn't know GitHub was on the internet. I thought he was talking about my experience. Turns out he wasn't... He was talking about two other students, who he talked with independently, and were in his sophomore level class.

This was pre-covid btw. The other story was post. Things only got worse post and I heard similar stories from friends in other departments and other universities. A friend of mine teaching history on the other side of the country had Freshmen who failed an assignment that was "call the library, go check out a book."

So I think this context should help in understanding the actual problem here. I do think GPT is a problem. But like I said, I think the actual problem runs much deeper. Kids were turning off their brains before that... But it was definitely a very sharp drop with covid and another sharp drop after 3.5 came out.