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What is it like to be a bat?

(en.wikipedia.org)
180 points adityaathalye | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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bondarchuk ◴[] No.45119634[source]
>"An organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism – something that it is like for the organism."

IMHO the phrasing here is essential to the argument and this phrasing contains a fundamental error. In valid usage we only say that two things are like one another when they are also separate things. The usage here (which is cleverly hidden in some tortured language) implies that there is a "thing" that is "like" "being the organism", yet is distinct from "being the organism". This is false - there is only "being the organism", there is no second "thing that is like being the organism" not even for the organism itself.

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mtlmtlmtlmtl ◴[] No.45119822[source]
This is the conclusion I come to whenever I try to grasp the works of Nagel, Chalmers, Goff, Searle et al. They're just linguistically chasing their own tails. There's no meaningful insight below it all. All of their arguments, however complex, all rely on poorly defined terms like "understand" "subjective experience", "what it is like", "qualia", etc. And when you try to understand the arguments with the definition of these terms left open, you realise the arguments only make sense when the terms include in their definition a supposition that the argument is true. It's all just circular reasoning.
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biophysboy ◴[] No.45120703[source]
If he were capable of describing subjective experience in words with the exactitude you're asking for, then his central argument would be false. The point is that objective measures, like writing, are external, and cannot describe internal subjective experience. Its one thing to probe the atoms; its another thing to be the atoms themselves.

Basically his answer to the question "What is it like to be a bat?" is that its impossible to know.

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1. glenstein ◴[] No.45121270[source]
>If he were capable of describing subjective experience in words with the exactitude you're asking for, then his central argument would be false.

Indeed! Makes you think: maybe it's a bug rather than a feature.