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170 points PaulHoule | 17 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
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Scene_Cast2 ◴[] No.45118686[source]
The paper is hard to read. There is no concrete worked-through example, the prose is over the top, and the equations don't really help. I can't make head or tail of this paper.
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lumost ◴[] No.45118775[source]
This appears to be a position paper written by authors outside of their core field. The presentation of "the wall" is only through analogy to derivatives on the discrete values computer's operate in.
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1. jibal ◴[] No.45119709[source]
If you look at their other papers, you will see that this is very much within their core field.
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2. lumost ◴[] No.45119914[source]
Their other papers are on simulation and applied chemistry. Where does their expertise in Machine Learning, or Large Language Models derive from?

While it's not a requirement to have published in a field before publishing in a field. Having a coauthor who is from the target field or a peer review venue in that field as an entry point certainly raises credibility.

From my limited claim to be in either Machine Learning or Large Language Models the paper does not appear to demonstrate what it claims. The author's language addresses the field of Machine Learning and LLM development as you would a young student - which does not help make their point.

replies(1): >>45132135 #
3. JohnKemeny ◴[] No.45120336[source]
He's a chemist. Lots of chemists and physicists like to talk about computation without having any background in it.

I'm not saying anything about the content, merely making a remark.

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4. chermi ◴[] No.45120611[source]
You're really not saying anything? Just a random remark with no bearing?

Seth Lloyd, Wolpert, Landauer, Bennet, Fredkin, Feynman, Sejnowski, Hopfield, Zechinna, parisi,mezard, and zdebvora, Crutchfeld, Preskill, Deutsch, Manin, Szilard, MacKay....

I wish someone told them to shut up about computing. And I wouldn't dare claim von Neumann as merely a physicist, but that's where he was coming from. Oh and as much as I dislike him, Wolfram.

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5. 11101010001100 ◴[] No.45122263[source]
Succi is no slouch; hardcore multiscale physics guy, among other things.
6. godelski ◴[] No.45122690[source]

  > Lots of chemists and physicists like to talk about computation without having any background in it.
I'm confused. Physicists deal with computation all the time. Are you confusing computation with programming? There's a big difference. Physicists and chemists are frequently at odds with the limits of computability. Remember, Turing, Church, and even Knuth obtained degrees in mathematics. The divide isn't so clear cut and there's lots of overlaps. I think if you go look at someone doing their PhD in Programming Languages you could easily be mistake them for a mathematician.

Looking at the authors I don't see why this is out of their domain. Succi[0] looks like he deals a lot with fluid dynamics and has a big focus on Lattice Boltzmann. Modern fluid dynamics is all about computability and its limits. There's a lot of this that goes into the Navier–Stokes problem (even Terry Tao talks about this[1]), which is a lot about computational reproducibility.

Coveney[2] is a harder read for me, but doesn't seem suspect. Lots of work in molecular dynamics, so shares a lot of tools with Succi (seems like they like to work together too). There's a lot of papers there, but sorting by year there's quite a few that scream "limits of computability" to me.

I can't make strong comments without more intimate knowledge of their work, but nothing here is a clear red flag. I think you're misinterpreting because this is a position paper, written in the style you'd expect from a more formal field, but also is kinda scatterd. I've only done a quick read, -- don't get me wrong, I have critiques -- but there's no red flags that warrant quick dismissal. (My background: physicist -> computational physics -> ML) There's things they are pointing to that are more discussed within the more mathematically inclined sides of ML (it's a big field... even if only a small subset are most visible). I'll at least look at some of their other works on the topic as it seems they've written a few papers.

[0] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=XrI0ffIAAAAJ

[1] I suspect this well above the average HN reader, but pay attention to what they mean by "blowup" and "singularity" https://terrytao.wordpress.com/tag/navier-stokes-equations/

[2] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=_G6FZ6YAAAAJ

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7. calf ◴[] No.45124095{3}[source]
There are some good example posts on Scott Aaronson's blog where he eviscerated shoddy physicists' take on quantum complexity theory. Physicists today aren't like Turing et al, most never picked up a theory of computer science book and actually worked through the homework exercises, and with AI pivot and paper spawning, this is kind of a general problem (arguably more interdisciplinary expertise is needed but people need to actually take the time to learn material and internalize it without making sophomore mistakes etc.).
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8. JohnKemeny ◴[] No.45124354{3}[source]
As you note, some physicists do have computing backgrounds. I'm not suggesting they can't do computer science.

But today, most people hold opinions about LLMs, both as to their limits and their potential, without any real knowledge of computational linguistics nor of deep learning.

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9. JohnKemeny ◴[] No.45124370{3}[source]
Turing, Church, and even Knuth got their degrees before CS was an academic discipline. At least I don't think Turing studied Turing machines in his undergrads.

I'm saying that lots of people like to post their opinions of LLMs regardless of whether or not they actually have any competence in either computational linguistics or deep learning.

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10. JohnKemeny ◴[] No.45124453[source]
Look at their actual papers before making a comment of what is or isn't their core field: https://dblp.org/pid/35/3081.html
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11. godelski ◴[] No.45125375{4}[source]
Sure, but how long ago was that? Do you really think the fields fully decoupled in such a small time? That's the entire point of that comment
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12. ◴[] No.45125416{4}[source]
13. jibal ◴[] No.45128377{4}[source]
Your whole take is extraordinarily ad hominem. The paper in question is not just people posting opinions.
14. jibal ◴[] No.45128392[source]
I did. And don't tell me what I can or can't comment on.
15. jibal ◴[] No.45128423{5}[source]
The fellow is engaged in some pretty intense gatekeeping.
16. stonogo ◴[] No.45132135[source]
If you can't look at that publication list and see their expertise in macine learning, then it may be that they know more about your field than you know about theirs. Nothing wrong with that! Computational chemists use different terminology than computer scientists but there is significant overlap in the fields.
17. chermi ◴[] No.45140626{4}[source]
Huh? Have you heard of learning something new? Physicists and scientists at large are pretty good at it. Do you want some certification program to determine who's allowed to opine? If someone is wrong, tell them and show them they're wrong. Don't preemptively dismiss ideas based on some authority mechanism.

Here's another example in case you still don't get the point - Schrodinger had no business talking about biology because he wasn't trained in it, right? Nevermind him being ahead of the entire field on understanding the role of "DNA"(yet undiscovered, but he correctly posited the crystal-ish structure) and information in evolution and inspiring Watson's quest to figure out DNA.

Judge ideas on the merit of the idea itself. It's not about whether they have computing backgrounds, its about the ideas.

Hell, look at the history of deep learning with Minsky's book. Sure glad everyone listened to the linguistics expert there...