Woah, Lttlabs on hacker news front page!
I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.
Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.
I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
The standard allows for a role swap at any point while connected, and if that’s triggered will be dependent on the firmware/config on one or both ends.
There’s probably more nuance hiding in the real world hardware too.
It’s not until much further in the video that they backtrack a bit and call it “tactical laziness” by Nintendo. Honestly, I did not get that far on my first watch.
[0] YouTube now confusingly shows different titles randomly. I’m seeing “Nintendo’s Greed could Change the Tech Industry” but that may not be its real title for all I know.
> Any DRP port must have pull-down 5k1 resistors on CC wires (as a sink), AND 10-22-56k pull-ups (as provider), but not at the same time. The DRP then alternates the sink advertising (5k1 pull-downs) with pull-ups (source advertising) about 10 to 20 times per second.
> If another DRP is connected, they both will toggle their advertising until a correct (pull-up - pull-down) combination occurs. Then CC controller(s) will stop toggling, and the end that happens to be in provider mode will provide +5VSAFE VBUS. The process will end in one or other direction, which will happen at random (since frequencies of toggling are independent).
The Switch 2 came out in a world with widespread standards compliant USB-C.
> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
From the verge [0], 2 months ago:
> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.
> […]
> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.
I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C
[0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...
I've only tried it out on one occasion, and I'm not clear on the delay, or whether both ends need to be disconnected or only one. I was a little surprised it isn't talked about more.
So instead they sad "Nintendo stopped early with developing compatibility"
Basically DRPs toggle back and forth between sink and source until they happen to match up (one side has switched to source and one to sink). If it doesn’t prefer to do the role it’s resolved to randomly, it can switch to the other way and wait a bit - if the other side is fine with it then it will switch too and everyone is happy, if not you can switch back.
We use this for a device that can on-charge a device when it has external power plugged in (in which case we prefer source role) but not when running on battery (in which case we prefer sink but don’t actually pull any power because it’s self powered).
Switch 1 was released in 2017. PD 1.0 was 2013 , and display port out was 2014. Both were supported by numerous devices by the time the switch 1 was out.
Granted they really wanted hdmi alt mode which was 2016 but the switch 1 doesn’t even support display port out which could have been coupled with a converter in the dock.
The simpler reason is that Nintendo both cheaps out on parts and has no incentive to increase compatibility. The number of users who care is not worth it for Nintendo to care, and they’re not afoul of any regulations.
I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.
No thanks.
Melee runs on mods always nowadays (input processing patches for fairness and bugfixes), but they mod it in a way that doesn't have any visible difference so they get away with it.
I'm not saying that's the case for you, but USB-C is a minefield and I've seen some weird things happen with USB-C plugs.
Not a great user experience.
Pretty sure the Switch (1) Dock used a similar HDMI adapter. Even the PS4 had a DP > HDMI adapter internally for some reason.
Display port would have still allowed for a standardized format for other docks to provide conversion, or for connection to computer monitors.
So there are non-compliant plugs, but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly - either through ineptitude or foolish cost saving.
If Nintendo genuinely cared about experience they'd just follow the standard and work with any dock, then pop up a notification if it notices that the device is overheating - perhaps even with a "We recommend the official dock" text.
The current behaviour is completely unacceptable and needlessly user-hostile. There's no way around it: their USB-C implementation is broken.
I kind of understand why they would rather break their USBC support intentionally and make it very clear that video out is only happening with their dock. Especially considering their audiences.
A laptop and a power bank both support both modes, but the laptop will have a "prefer sink" policy and the power bank will have a "prefer source" policy. As long as you don't connect two laptops or two power banks, it'll work out just fine.
Moreover, it has an override mechanism in case you do connect two identical devices. If you do connect two laptops together for data transferring, the OS should be able to let the user override the power flow direction - or even disable charging altogether.
That fried another device when I plugged it in.
This is non compliant in the EU, but when I reported it to the responsible authorities, they didn't feel like doing anything about it.
We are talking about a charger that can fry any device and potentially cause a fire, coming with a product aimed at people with babies, that's clearly non compliant to be sold in the EU, and they are doing nothing at all. Pretty shocking if you ask me.
I think to solve it, while keeping all the other goals of usb C would be to orient the charging pins on the plug, not charging the direction you want? unplug then flip one side.
It's the same company as when you were a kid playing N64 or SNES or NES or whatever, just now you're older and jaded.
We purchased a Switch and the kids have enjoyed many games on it. After reading other comments on here, I am surprised my Switch has not been bricked - and I am not doing anything dodgy at all.
As for the Switch 2. I was showing the announcement videos with the kids - they did not look excited for it. As for me, I was smirking when they were not revealing the price of the console and games. I knew something was up. Within hours there were angry youtube channels blasting their prices.
I am not even getting into Nintendo's legal behaviours over ROMs, youtube channels, or games like Palworld.
"Oh.. that thing you do in this game... Yeah... we have a patent for that!"
Of course, every game Nintendo creates are completely new ideas. Sure, I give Nintendo credit with their involvement in video game history - but I am sure "new features" in Mario Kart World are inspired from other games..... but if you do something Nintendo consider is their idea (especially patented) - they will throw money at you *towards their legal department*
Nintendo are not a family-based games company. They lost that title some time, now. Unless they really change their ways, I wont buy Nintendo again. I do not support their practices. Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles - but a decent PC have many, many great games of the last 30 years - and they will run faster, smoother, etc.
This Dock <--> USB-C drama is just laughable.
This is already higher than stated in legal EU-compliance documents [0], where the PD-charger is required to not provide more than 12W "in order to achieve the maximum charging speed"
Also interesting[0]: "TV mode requires output power of 54 watts. This is higher than the power requirements for charging given above. This product supports USB PD fast charging and is capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages up to 15 volts"
According to this, the device will obviously only use the 20V/3A mode (=60 watts) for TV mode, and will not utilize it for charging. Whereas the provided charger (NGN-01) also supports a 15V USB-PD mode which MAY be used for charging.
I assume the device will request max. 15V/1A for charging then, adding up to 15W (not sure why they state the charger should not support "more than 12W"). However, I guess at 15V the majority of power in this state is going to the device and not the battery (they only have a single battery-cell which should be charged with 5V. If they want to charge the battery, they could also request 5V/3A from the charger)...
[0] https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/ninten...
At that point, why use USB-C for the dock connection at all? Just use a proprietary connector if you're not going to follow the standards.
Having a separate USB-C port for charging should satisfy e.g. the EU regulations requiring that, I think. (Assuming that is the reason they used USB-C in the first place)
Early devices were things like the OnePlus 2 [0] and there were plenty of phones out before the Switch even hit the market in 2017 [1]. There were some issues with standards compliance, sure, but the market had vastly improved by the time the Switch had come out.
[0] https://www.gsmarena.com/oneplus_2-6902.php [1] https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?nYearMax=2017&nUSBType...
If anything, manufacturers that are able to provide working, compatible solutions should be preferred by consumers to those that don't, and the laws of economics will take care of the rest.
But some of those manufacturers have large loyal customer bases that will find ways to justify them even if they were to employ child labor, so there is that.
Nintendo unnecessarily chose to make their device partially USB-C incompatible in an intransparent way. A lot of users will rely on this working (as it already did on the Switch 1) and then it just won't, and probably the user will just assume their third-party USB dongle is broken and maybe buy another one, which means Nintendo won't get anything out of it and the user will lose more money. Everyone loses but at least the pesky customer can't use a third-party product.
What about it is "very clear"? It worked on the Switch 1, it's expected to work as it's USB, there is no error message, it just will appear that maybe the USB dongle or HDMI cable or whatever is defective.
Because it wasn’t possible for Switch 1. After some time, some alternative USB-C hubs supported the Switch video output but it was basically reverse engineering and I totally remember this first "compatible" hub back in the early days of the console which happened to brick consoles.
Nintendo is like Apple they :
- Don’t want you tu use the Switch in unpredictable ways : with the switch on the dock the cooling is guaranteed to be efficient, even on Switch 1 because it meant that the console wasn’t lying on a blanket.
- Don’t want you to buy anything else than their expensive dock.
What do you mean? From what I know it was bog-standard microSD(HC/XC) with the maximum supported speed being UHS-I with nothing proprietary.
Vendor Defined Messages have is part of any normal PD exchange, as they're simply anything that isn't defined by the PD spec itself. You'll see VDMs when connecting any device supporting more than just dumb charging, as it's used for all sorts of things like DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, eMarker identification, etc. - stuff we'd expect ehre.
The quote from Antak refers to just a single, possibly/likely proprietary, message. This could be to ID the dock on the basis of e.g. rejecting the switch 1 dock should one cram it in, or to reject switch 1 dongles. Maybe it's Nintendo speak for "dock capabilities: cooling", with the switch having no mode for docked gaming with reduced performance without cooling.
Intentional incompatibility, yes, but it's 1 message of an unknown type within bog standard USB-PD, not a "vendor defined lanugage" or "over 30 proprietary messages".
To be pedantic, I believe that only applies to USB-C sockets; AFAIK, a USB-C plug (like on a USB-A to USB-C cable) can in some cases put out 5V (but only 5V) before detecting a sink.
> but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly
The standard was designed so that devices never see anything over 5V unless they ask for it, so why should a non-PD device (for instance, a mouse) care about it? In some cases (like a USB-A mouse plugged into a USB-A to USB-C adapter), the device might even have been designed and built when USB was 5V only.
I feel (or rather hope) we'll see more than that at some point. Being able to replace device-specific wall adapters would be a huge win. This has largely already happened for everything that needs 10 watts or less, but between that and things that actually need a lot of power (i.e. kilowatts, not watts) and/or benefit from AC (mostly motors), there's still an annoying valley of power bricks.
I especially hate the type that's hard-wired to the power plug that blocks 1-2 other outlets due to its bulk and inevitably gets lost during a move or trip to storage and back.
One problem with EU regulation (or at least most regulations; a few have union-wide regulators) is that you're really quite dependent on whether your national responsible body is any good.
For something like this (assuming it's sold union-wide and not just in your country), it might actually be useful to notify the responsible bodies on _other countries_ (once it's actually investigated and recalled the recall should be union-wide).
I have many reasons to be pissed at Apple but connectivity is not one of them.
For a DIY solution, protocol wise it doesn't seem too complicated, but electronically USB-C or HDMI is out of reach for most hobbyists. And I assume most USB-C interface chips you can get aren't programmable to the degree neccessary...
Please do not generalize like this. DP over USB-C is essential for devices like Xreal One and One Pro — these work great with the Switch 1 and do not work at all with the Switch 2. It's a complete showstopper at the moment for people who would like to play games displaying them on those glasses.
As far as working as a replacement dock for the original, it does the job very nicely while being smaller and easier to use overall (IMHO). At $28/ea I can afford to have a dock on every TV I would even consider playing my Switch on at less than the cost of 1 official dock.
The problem starts when multiple ports are involved. Plugging in a second device can trigger unpredictable behavior, which is usually acceptable for battery-powered devices. But for devices that need a continuous power supply (e.g., a Raspberry Pi), multi-port chargers aren’t reliable –– connecting another device may briefly interrupt power.
Using a traditional power strip with one dedicated adapter per device avoids this issue.
For now, I’m sticking with individual USB-C adapters for non-battery-powered devices.
The reason labs was started was to be able to produce different kinds of content, and to have a moat on technical data and quality of reviews that no one else can pull off.
Instead we have this mess where you don't know whether a cable is good for laptop charging, and whether that same cable can be used for data in addition to charging. (skipping that data wire saves a few cents, that sounds like a great idea!)
So nothing will come out of them regarding Nintendo's behavior.
To satisfy charging expectations with the same port as display that they decided to do something proprietary with. On the flip side, why not do that when people will buy the console no matter what?
Every device in my room except for switch supports more than one voltage config. Wondering why on the earth switch decided to handle voltage setting like this.
Usually, pd charger will label their supported voltage config. And you can read that label to find out whether a charger will work with switch or not.
Source: I do use my phone charger to charge switch during traveling
I don’t think LTT goal is just be another commodity YouTube review site whose entire appeal is dependent on a single personality. That not really a scalable or long term sustainable approach.
Large journalist organisations of any kind aren’t built by aiming to be mediocre.
Data to provide evidence of performance objectively evaluates products, benefiting everyone. For example, show me who has been verifying the quality and performance claims of computer power supplies without equipment such as LTT labs.
If you want to be reductive about it - technology and their gadgets are valuable for the audience, but not strictly necessary.
> Even the PS4 had a DP > HDMI adapter internally for some reason.
DP is far more than just an external display protocol. Its biggest use case is internal display signals, so it’s used to power pretty much every laptop screen.
As a result standard PC hardware (which is what the PS4 is) has defacto support for DP, because is the standard display transport between embedded video components. As a result it’s a lot easier and cheaper to build a device that outputs DP, and then slap a HDMI converter on it, than it is to build a device that uses HDMI natively.
In addition the spec now has messages that allow a charger to renegotiate the PD contract with a device with resetting the entire USB-C connection. So if you have chargers and devices that support these elements, you can connect and disconnect devices with interrupting the power to anything else connected. The charger just does a live renegotiation and redistribution of its available power envelope.
Also means that when a phone and battery pack get plugged in, the charger can pull power allocation from the battery pack to send to the phone so the phone charges first. Then once the phone is charged, reallocate the power budget to the battery packs again.
I could put a USB-C connector on a device and have it not even try to do any USB protocol over the wire. If not being careful about pinouts, it could be super easy to destroy either device if plugged into some other USB-compliant device.
They have their own site and all
That means the monitor tries to change its own role from USB host (which it defaulted to because it's the power source) to USB gadget. And the Switch rejects the request because it sees itself as the USB gadget (for example to exchange data when you connect it to a PC).
The article itself also says "Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM)" so I see no hint of foul play by Nintendo. (And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors.)
My guess would be that the connection failure is due to a firmware bug in the monitor. But I am also heavily biased here because my last Asus screen had A LOT of firmware issues.
There's a tier above them (Oracle, for instance), but they're pretty up there in their willingness to head to court not just with other big corporations but with individuals.
Yes, our legal system has major flaws.
Would be interesting if future hardware standards would not allow to be licensed as "within standard" if they break a few rules.
I could see some hardware vendors using their own implementation of a standard just to fool customers into believing it supports a standard while there are exceptions.
Isn't that what happened to bluetooth?
I am not an apple user, but isn't apple also abusing hardware standards to encourage clients to buy its products?
I think they did a bad job. They struck a poor balance between not explaining it and trying to explain it. They should have gone full technical or not at all and stayed very high level regarding the issue of bespoke protocols.
Then again, with xbox360/kinect, the camera was using the usb procotol, but microsoft prevented it from working with pcs in windows. Instead you had to buy a several times more expensive "pc" version, that had the same specs, except for having the malicious compliance tech was removed.
I guess nintendo learned from this.
For Switch 1 games, docked means "we're running as fast as the internal cooling can handle and outputting 1080p, assume the user can't use the touch screen and such". A dongle is fine here as long as you don't block the air inlets or exhausts, or place the Switch on something heat sensitive.
For Switch 2 games, docked means "we're running as fast as the externally boosted cooling can handle and cranking out 4k, and assume you can't use the touch screen and such". Assuming the fan does useful work here, then with a dongle you'll be thermal throttling and have a bad gaming experience - on a PC you'd turn down the settings, here those are hardcoded.
So, what about using the switch 2 handheld mode on a switch 1 dock, seeing it's the same resolution? Well, if you tell it to run in handheld mode it might assume you have access to the touchscreen, always-on VRR and HDR, is using internal speakers, etc.
It's totally doable, but to do this right the stack needs to be prepared for it. As such, I understand why they did it.
Heck, this was the same issue for the Switch 1, and it took a while for third-party docks to pop up. It'll take all but a moment for third party docks to support this.
'Overheating detected, reducing video resolution'.
Nintendo will earn millions by keeping it proprietary. Lets stop pretending this is about technical ability or 'protecting' the consumer from a bad ux.
Still, what happens if you connect a Switch 2 to a 1080p display? I assume it would render at 1080p, because rendering at 4K and downscaling for output would be too wasteful. Switch 1 even has a setting for that, allowing you to choose between 480p, 720p, and 1080p.
Why would this bring your power bill down? Isn’t that always going to be calculated on the basis of kWh actually drawn?
They stated it MAY be lazy, it MAY be intentional. They declined to state a singular conclusion so I 'm not sure how they're wrong. I think maybe you feel they're saying it's not, but they're actually saying "we don't have conclusive proof either way, but we could see either being true given Nintendo's history of laziness at some times and maliciousness at other times."
You argue that it's beneficial for informing the consumer. It is, but no one here disagreed with that.
You know more about this than me, so now I think what I stated about unplugging and re-plugging is likely incorrect advice, one step above "turn the cable around" which I think also works enough of the time that people keep trying it and repeating it as a method.
Well, that's why people buy Nintendo consoles. You don't buy a Switch 2, you buy the device needed to play Mario Kart and Zelda, whatever it is.
In general, consoles are defined by their games, they are not general purpose machines and everything is to be seen from this angle. Hardwares specs don't matter, what matter is how well the games you want to play run. It is even more so with Nintendo as they have generally less powerful hardware with some of the best games as exclusive licenses.
Nintendo ships a dock with every Switch 2. How big is the market for people buying aftermarket docks? Nintendo has always aimed very squarely at the mass market.
With this, despite the fact Switch 2 might sell well this generation - I think Nintendo need to be very cautious next time. We shall see.
Personally, and I am not poor, but I think it's expensive to purchase Switch 2 + games when I legally do not own them. You are getting what seems to be known as a Revocable License.
This means many things. Its not just Nintendo cancelling or bricking your Switch 2 when you do (or presumably) something naughty... it means Nitendo can officially push for end of life to the console itself. While Nintendo may not do this to the Switch 2, servers for games eventually will. Paying nearly £100 for a game that might stop working in 7 years... unless you pay another £500 for their next console and move it over. LOL!!!!!
It does not make sense to pay this sort of money when it blurs the lines of ownership. We can go back-and-forth on this all day, but if people have no issues and still want to buy a Switch 2 is up to them. Again.. It's is their choice and I respect that.
I have explained this issue to my kids and they understand my point of view and why I wont buy a Switch 2. Of course, if they want to buy one with their own money - they can.
The type of model Nintendo are pushing works better like a Netflix monthly subscription.. or... perhaps more comparable to XBox Game pass. They will likely do this next time. I am just interested what their monthly price will be. I am sure it will be laughable!
The older generation can see past all the BS.. but the younger generation will blindly accept it. When they get older and see the differences to their first purchase.. then they can moan like I am now. It wont matter.. as the next younger gen will rinse and repeat. The cycle continue.
To me, like many things, the best way to make a statement is with your wallet. That's all I am doing. If I am the minority then so be it. I might be pointed or laughed at - but atleast I stood by my principles.
(Its similar with Microsoft Windows license going back to the 90s. I dont own it. I purchase the right to use it. I dont agree with it, so I use Linux.)
And I believe that's also the real reason why Nintendo would block them: They make otherwise fluent games stutter, which will reflect badly on Nintendo and the game developers. Because people in general won't know that their Nreal Air is stealing some of the Switch's GPU performance and that they are creating performance issues themselves.
Note that the cooling fan inside the dock is for cooling the dock and not the Switch 2 itself. The Switch 2 has its own fan for that.
So while not everyone docks the Switch 2 to a 4K display, the Switch 2 dock must support that.
Because the Switch 2 is a different machine. Games being backwards compatible (via emulation) doesn't mean the hardware is (or has to be) backwards compatible. Different display chips, different display protocols, etc.
People made all kinds of claims about how the Switch 1 wasn't USB Type-C compliant when it was discovered that the Nyko dock kept frying the power management IC in the first Switch console. I think a lot of that false communal knowledge has carried forth to the Switch 2, unfortunately.
I don’t see a single reason to think Nintendo of that time would do anything differently.
The reason for not accepting whatever dock/adapter seems pretty good in this case. The dock should have active cooling to conform to user expectations. And there’s no signs that Nintendo will prevent anyone from making a dock that supports it as long as it follows the procedure to confirm that it has active cooling.
They are following the standards. They don't have to communicate with devices that they don't want to communicate with. There's no requirement in the USB spec that connected Type-C compliant devices interoperate in all cases.
The Nintendo Switch wasn't super picky about docks, but in order for external display to work, the dock had to support the mobile DisplayPort protocol that Nintendo used, "MyDP" instead of vanilla DisplayPort, which is what most devices supported at the time the Switch was released. Again, that wasn't a non-compliant thing on the part of the Switch, the Switch just used a technology that wasn't commonly used by much else, which is very commonly done by Nintendo.
It can be, but it doesn't have to be. DisplayPort is mostly a superset of HDMI, with different voltage levels. Going from HDMI to DisplayPort is much harder than going from DisplayPort to HDMI, though the hardware to do this is apparently much cheaper than it used to be, which is nice to see.
DisplayPort to HDMI only requires level shifting, as I understand it. I'm sure someone will correct me if they see this and I'm wrong.
But also yes, most display port implementations also speak hdmi and can get away with simple converters
The GGP comment makes it sound like Nintendo only supported proprietary microSD cards at launch. While they did sell and recommend their branded microSD cards, one could use any brand of microSD card with the system and have the same functionality.
I'm far happier that I only have one charger in my backpack that works for practically all my portable electronics. I'm far happier I've got an extra power bank in my bag that works with one cable to charge practically all my portable electronics and can be charged by that one wall adapter. I'm far happier I have one dock cable on my desk that provides power/kvm/network to my work laptop, my personal laptop, my spouse's tablet, etc. Far better than having a dozen different cables for a dozen different devices.
You might be thinking of DisplayPort++, which is a special port supporting both DisplayPort and HDMI, allowing passive adapters. This is not available in the USB-C DisplayPort AltMode.
That's DP++, which is not supported on all DP outputs, and notably is not supported by the USB-C DP AltMode.
I've got a pile of passive adapters because I have an esoteric device that has broken DP audio but HDMI audio using DP++ works fine.