←back to thread

120 points cl42 | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
shubhamjain ◴[] No.45075187[source]
"This tool 10x the productivity of software engineers"

"GREAT! That means we can fire the people who do the actual work, and replace them with MBA robots, who neither understand nor care about making a good product"

Pardon my pessimism, but in my whole career, I have never met a PM who actual did the work of driving the product vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling information between management, marketing, design, and engineering. Thinking that hiring more PMs would increase the output in the age of AI is such a childish fantasy.

replies(13): >>45075310 #>>45075416 #>>45075437 #>>45075471 #>>45075681 #>>45075696 #>>45075754 #>>45075842 #>>45079942 #>>45082590 #>>45084366 #>>45085073 #>>45092999 #
crazygringo ◴[] No.45075437[source]
"I have never met an engineer who actually did the work of driving the engineering vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling data between servers, disks, clients, and CPUs."

You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the value PM's provide. What you describe as "just" is a challenging job.

Generally, the vision is set by the founder, and it can be written down in a sentence or two. There's a ton of work trying to translate that vision into something that is coherent across engineers, customers, sales, and marketing.

replies(2): >>45075497 #>>45075529 #
gregorygoc ◴[] No.45075529[source]
Deeply flawed analogy. Engineers operate in the same organizational structure as PMs.

Also, in product feature teams it is up to the debate whether PMs provide any value, if you put engineers closer to customers. For the PM role to work, they need to convey customer requirements to product requirements. I have never seen a PM do a better job at this in comparison to just sending a TL to a video call with a client.

replies(2): >>45075858 #>>45076024 #
crazygringo ◴[] No.45076024[source]
> Engineers operate in the same organizational structure as PMs.

I don't know what this means. Engineers are not generally spending half their time talking to management, marketing, sales, customers, and other stakeholders.

> Also, in product feature teams it is up to the debate whether PMs provide any value, if you put engineers closer to customers. For the PM role to work, they need to convey customer requirements to product requirements. I have never seen a PM do a better job at this in comparison to just sending a TL to a video call with a client.

Great, but ten different clients want ten different product requirements, that in fact contradict each other. And it takes ten hours of calls to talk to those ten customers.

Plenty of engineers could certainly do the PM job. Many PM's come from engineering. But the point is that it's far more efficient and effective to have one person doing that, and let engineers do the engineering. That's the value. As an engineer, do you want to spend 20 hours every week talking to customers and writing feature specifications and managing a backlog? Or do you want to do, you know, engineering?

Just because you could do the PM job doesn't mean that's an efficient use of your time, or what you enjoy doing.

replies(2): >>45077435 #>>45086387 #
1. icedchai ◴[] No.45086387[source]
Exactly that. Generally, engineers want to build and not go to meetings all day. The problem happens with the PMs who are supposed to be doing this work don't do it, or do it poorly. You wind up with miscommunications: missing requirements, misunderstood edge cases, etc. This pisses people off big time.