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God created the real numbers

(www.ethanheilman.com)
136 points Bogdanp | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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andrewla ◴[] No.45067770[source]
I'm an enthusiastic Cantor skeptic, I lean very heavily constructivist to the point of almost being a finitist, but nonetheless I think the thesis of this article is basically correct.

Nature and the universe is all about continuous quantities; integral quantities and whole numbers represent an abstraction. At a micro level this is less true -- elementary particles specifically are a (mostly) discrete phenomenon, but representing the state even of a very simple system involves continuous quantities.

But the Cantor vision of the real numbers is just wrong and completely unphysical. The idea of arbitrary precision is intrinsically broken in physical reality. Instead I am off the opinion that computation is the relevant process in the physical universe, so approximations to continuous quantities are where the "Eternal Nature" line lies, and the abstraction of the continuum is just that -- an abstraction of the idea of having perfect knowledge of the state of anything in the universe.

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alphazard ◴[] No.45068318[source]
> Nature and the universe is all about continuous quantities

One could argue that nature always deals in discrete quantities and we have models that accurately predict these quantities. Then we use math that humans clearly created (limits) to produce similar models, except they imagine continuous inputs.

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adrian_b ◴[] No.45068573[source]
The quantity of matter and the quantity of electricity are discrete, but work, time and space are continuous, like also any quantities derived from them.

There have been attempts to create discrete models of time and space, but nothing useful has resulted from those attempts.

Most quantities encountered in nature include some dependency on work/energy, time or space, so nature deals mostly in continuous quantities, or more precisely the models that we can use to predict what happens in nature are still based mostly on continuous quantities, despite the fact that about a century and a half have passed since the discreteness of matter and electricity has been confirmed.

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dudinax ◴[] No.45071474[source]
We do not know whether work time and space are continuous
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adrian_b ◴[] No.45072460[source]
What we know is that we use mathematical models based on the continuity of work, time and space (and on the discreteness of matter and electricity) and until now we have not seen any experiment where a discrepancy between predicted and measured values could be attributed to the falseness of the supposition that work, time and space are continuous.

Obviously this does not exclude the possibility that in the future some experiments where much higher energies per particle are used, allowing the testing of what happens at much smaller distances, might show evidence that there exists a discrete structure of time and space, like we know for matter.

However, that has not happened yet and there are no reasons to believe that it will happen soon. The theory about the existence of atoms is more than 2 millennia old, then it has been abandoned for lack of evidence, then it was revived at the beginning of the 19th century, due to accumulated evidence from chemistry, and it was eventually confirmed beyond doubt in 1865, when Johann Josef Loschmidt became the first who could count atoms and molecules, after determining their masses.

So the discreteness of matter had a very long history of accumulating evidence in favor of it.

Nothing similar applies to the discreteness of time and space, for which there has never been any kind of evidence. The only reason of the speculations about this is the analogy made with the fact that matter and electricity had been believed to be continuous, but eventually it has been discovered that they are discrete.

Such an analogy must make us keep an open mind about the possibility of work, time and space being discrete, but we should not waste time speculating about this when there are huge problems in physics that do not have a solution yet. In modern physics there are a huge amount of quantities that should be computable by theory, but in fact they cannot be computed and they must be measured experimentally. Therefore the existing theories are clearly not good enough.

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AIorNot ◴[] No.45073625{3}[source]
Umm SpaceTime is likely NOT to be fundamental or continuous

https://youtu.be/GL77oOnrPzY?si=nllkY_E8WotARwUM

Also Bells Therom implies no locality or non realism which to me furthers the nail on the coffin of spacetime

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1. adrian_b ◴[] No.45074519{4}[source]
That presentation is like all the research that has been published in this domain, i.e. it presents some ideas that might be used to build an alternative theory of space-time, but no such actual theories.

There are already several decades of such discussions, but no usable results.

Time and space are primitive quantities in any current theory of physics, i.e. quantities that are assumed to exist and have certain properties, and which are used to define derived quantities.

Any alternative theory must start by enumerating exactly which are its primitive quantities and which are their properties. Anything else is just gibberish, not better than Star Trek talk.

However, the units of measurement for time and length are not fundamental units a.k.a. base units, because it is impossible to make any physical system characterized by values of time or length that are stable enough and reproducible enough.

Because of that, the units of time and length are derived from fundamental units that are units of some derived quantities, currently from the units of work and velocity (i.e. the unit of work is the work required to transition a certain atom, currently cesium 133, from a certain state to a certain other state, i.e. which is equal to the difference between the energies of the 2 states, while the unit of velocity is the velocity of light in vacuum).