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205 points ColinWright | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.431s | source
1. Mordisquitos ◴[] No.45074442[source]
> There are, I think, two small cracks in that argument.

> The first is that a user has no right to run anyone else's code, if the code owner doesn't want to make it available to them. Consider a bank which has an app. When customers are scammed, the bank is often liable. The bank wants to reduce its liability so it says "you can't run our app on a rooted phone".

> Is that fair? Probably not. Rooting allows a user to fully control and customise their device. But rooting also allows malware to intercept communications, send commands, and perform unwanted actions. I think the bank has the right to say "your machine is too risky - we don't want our code to run on it."

> The same is true of video games with strong "anti-cheat" protection. It is disruptive to other players - and to the business model - if untrustworthy clients can disrupt the game. Again, it probably isn't fair to ban users who run on permissive software, but it is a rational choice by the manufacturer. And, yet again, I think software authors probably should be able to restrict things which cause them harm.

It's not clear to me whether in this fragment the author is stating the two alleged cracks in the argument or rather only the first one — the second one being Google's ostensible justification for the change. Either way, neither of these examples are generalisable arguments supporting that 'a user has no right to run anyone else's code, if the code owner doesn't want to make it available to them'.

With regards to banking apps, the key point has been glossed over, which is that that when customers are scammed the bank is 'often' liable. Are banks really liable for scams caused by customer negligence on their devices? If they're not, this 'crack' can be thrown out of the window; if they are, then it is not an argument for "you can't run our app on a rooted phone", but rather "we are not liable for scams which are only possible on a rooted phone".

As for the second example, anti-cheat protection in gaming, the ultimate motivation of game companies is not to prevent 'untrustworthy clients' from 'running their code'. The ability of these clients to be 'disruptive to other players' is not ultimately contingent on their ability to run the code, but rather to connect to the multiplayer servers run by the gaming company or their partners. The game company's legitimate right 'to ban users who run on permissive software' is not a legitimate argument in favour of users not having full control over their system.

replies(3): >>45074523 #>>45074951 #>>45081994 #
2. edent ◴[] No.45074523[source]
Thanks for the feedback. Those examples are meant to cover the first point.

The problem if you are a bank is that scammed people can be very persistent about trying to reclaim their money. There's a cost to the bank of dealing with a complaint, doing an investigation, replying to the regulator, fielding questions from an MP, having the story appear in the press about the heartless bank refusing to refund a little old lady.

It is entirely rational for them to decide not to bear that cost - even if they aren't liable.

3. snowe2010 ◴[] No.45074951[source]
> rather "we are not liable for scams which are only possible on a rooted phone".

Who is going to prove that though? It’s much simpler and less stressful on our court systems if a bank just says “we don’t allow running on rooted phones” and then if a user takes them to court the burden is on proving whether the phone was rooted or not rather than proving if the exploit that affected them is only possible on a rooted phone.

4. mike_hearn ◴[] No.45081994[source]
> Are banks really liable for scams caused by customer negligence on their devices?

In the UK, not legally liable. However culture is not 100% aligned with the law and in practice banks that stick to the rules will be pilloried by the left-wing press and politicians, they risk regulator harassment etc, so they sometimes decide to socialize the losses anyway even when the law doesn't force them. The blog post cites an example of that.

To stop this you'd have to go further and pass a law that actively forbids banks from giving money to people who lost it to scammers through their own fault.