Most active commenters
  • gwbas1c(4)

←back to thread

369 points surprisetalk | 12 comments | | HN request time: 0.02s | source | bottom
Show context
jp57 ◴[] No.45065311[source]
One great piece of advice an informal mentor gave me long ago is that there is no information in a rejection.

That is to say that you cannot draw any conclusions about yourself or your interviewing technique or your skills or anything from the single accept==0 bit that you typically get back. There are so many reasons that a candidate might get rejected that have nothing to do with one's individual performance in the interview or application process.

Having been on the hiring side of the interview table now many more times than on the seeking side, I can say that this is totally true.

One of the biggest misconceptions I see from job seekers, especially younger ones, is to equate a job interview to a test at school, assuming that there is some objective bar and if you pass it then you must be hired. It's simply not true. Frequently more than one good applicant applies for a single open role, and the hiring team has to choose among them. In that case, you could "pass" and still not get the job and the only reason is that the hiring team liked someone else better.

I can only think of one instance where we had two great candidates for one role and management found a way to open another role so we could hire both. In a few other cases, we had people whom we liked but didn't choose and we forwarded their resumes to other teams who had open roles we thought would fit, but most of the time it's just, "sorry."

replies(28): >>45065407 #>>45066721 #>>45067214 #>>45067507 #>>45067669 #>>45067749 #>>45067752 #>>45067853 #>>45067877 #>>45068124 #>>45068162 #>>45068646 #>>45068946 #>>45069685 #>>45070016 #>>45070244 #>>45070366 #>>45070789 #>>45070808 #>>45071113 #>>45071336 #>>45071402 #>>45071583 #>>45072653 #>>45073540 #>>45074003 #>>45074100 #>>45081560 #
1. gwbas1c ◴[] No.45067853[source]
> there is no information in a rejection

Building on that: There's a few reasons why a company won't explain why they reject a candidate.

One of the reasons is that they don't want candidates to "game" the system, because it makes it hard to screen for the people they want to hire.

Another reason is that often rejections are highly subjective, and telling a candidate that "we didn't hire you because of X" could be highly insulting.

Finally, quite often candidates are rejected because the people hiring ultimately are looking for people they will get along with. It doesn't matter how smart someone is, if something about the working relationship causes friction, the team dynamic can quickly devolve. (And to be quite frank, in these situations the candidate will probably have a better job working elsewhere.) These kinds of rejections are highly subjective, so no one really wants to give a candidate feedback.

replies(3): >>45067925 #>>45070040 #>>45070614 #
2. constantly ◴[] No.45067925[source]
I used to provide feedback but often got candidates who were argumentative about it rather that accepting that the decision was final. This turned me off on the whole concept.
replies(1): >>45068464 #
3. 6LLvveMx2koXfwn ◴[] No.45068464[source]
but confirmed why you rejected the candidate - which is sort of a win
4. commandersaki ◴[] No.45070040[source]
Another reason is that often rejections are highly subjective, and telling a candidate that "we didn't hire you because of X" could be highly insulting.

If they've written down notes or a stance/defence in a talent management system, all they need to do is regurgitate that in my opinion. I wrote about it upthread but having done a data request under my country's privacy act, I was able to get a raw dump of all the data (PII redacted). Recommend that as best course of action if they're unwilling to provide feedback.

5. Bjartr ◴[] No.45070614[source]
These are all likely enough to contribute, but there's one big one.

If you don't say anything at all, the applicant has nothing to go on for a lawsuit against you.

If you say anything, and the applicant is a malicious litigant, you just became a potential paycheck via settlement.

If you're hiring a dozen people a year, you can probably ignore this. If you're hiring hundreds or thousands, and thus many times that number of applicants, you're going to step on that landmine eventually. Better then to have a company-wide policy "no feedback ever"

replies(2): >>45072091 #>>45102632 #
6. huhkerrf ◴[] No.45072091[source]
I hear this about lawsuits a lot, but it doesn't really track for me. If a hiring manager says, "we decided to pass on you because you didn't go in depth as much as we hoped on how you would handle latency," why does that open the company up to a lawsuit anymore than no answer?

I could see if the feedback was "we wanted someone who better fit the culture," but giving a specific answer on a core hiring criteria doesn't seem like it would cause a problem.

In reality, I think the most likely reason is what others have mentioned, that candidates would argue the point.

replies(1): >>45072918 #
7. dijit ◴[] No.45072918{3}[source]
I've been hiring people for a while and I use my "common sense" to violate conventions because of humanity, but I think you'd be surprised how defensive it becomes.

I always tell people why they didn't pass the interview, or why we didn't select them. Usually in a reasonably detailed way.

A plurality of individuals have tried to argue with me, that I didn't understand them (which, if true, could be a communication issue and thus: still an issue). Some try to litigate the issue (not in a court of law, but to say things like "but you didn't say that on the ad" (knowing how TCP works shouldn't be on an ad), or "I can learn" etc). A minority of those will go out of their way to hound me on social media.

My "HR" person doesn't get any of that because she gives no reason.

I'll continue to do it, because I think it's the right thing to do: but there are people in the world who disincentivise it. And after all; you're rejecting someone for a reason, so there is a higher probability that you will interface with someone who is as described: as they might not be finding work and thus circulating more and you are rejecting them for a reason... which could be related to attitude.

replies(2): >>45073766 #>>45102620 #
8. huhkerrf ◴[] No.45073766{4}[source]
Indeed. The closest I've ever come to "arguing" (quotes very much intended) was when a recruiter called to give me feedback, and followed up by asking if I would like a call back if a more junior role opened up.

I told her that I respected their opinion but that I disagreed that I wasn't ready for the more senior role, and so I wasn't interested, but appreciated their time nonetheless. And I was appreciative. Although I predicted as soon as the interview was over that I wasn't getting an offer and why, having confirmation helped me refine where I messed up in the interview.

9. gwbas1c ◴[] No.45102620{4}[source]
> A plurality of individuals have tried to argue with me... A minority of those will go out of their way to hound me on social media.

Which just reinforces why a rejection transitions to "no contact" most of the time. I try to make sure candidates have no contact information for this specific reason.

10. gwbas1c ◴[] No.45102632[source]
> If you say anything, and the applicant is a malicious litigant, you just became a potential paycheck via settlement.

Do you have examples? I know this is a real fear, but I've never heard any examples of lawsuits except for issues of discrimination due to age, gender, and ethnicity.

replies(1): >>45104688 #
11. Bjartr ◴[] No.45104688{3}[source]
Right, and a malicious litigant will argue that the feedback they received represents discrimination against a protected class. It doesn't matter if they're wrong so long as you're still forced to come to court to defend it. They just offer to settle for less than what you winning in court will cost you.
replies(1): >>45108684 #
12. gwbas1c ◴[] No.45108684{4}[source]
The article linked in this thread claims no one has ever sued based on constructive feedback: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22258113

(Not that I give it when rejecting most candidates, because I don't want to deal with an argument. In practice, I only gave constructive feedback once, and then posted it on my blog: https://blog.andrewrondeau.com/software/careers/interviewing...)