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295 points AndrewDucker | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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BrenBarn ◴[] No.45048272[source]
Our legal system is a shambles that is clearly not prepared to handle this kind of thing, even setting aside the situation with the supreme court. It's become clear that the "shadow law" of simply passing unconstitutional statutes, filing frivilous lawsuits, etc., is operating independently of the real legal system moves too slowly and does not have adequate mechanisms to prevent what is essentially a DDoS attack. All justice is delayed and so all justice is denied.
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eviks ◴[] No.45049638[source]
> passing unconstitutional statutes > independently of the real legal system

The former is literally the real legal system, nothing shadow about it. Shadow would be some hidden deal to drop charges or something.

It's also not DDOS when a huge part of what you call "real" is exactly the same, so not unwillingly overloaded but willingly complicit.

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dudefeliciano ◴[] No.45049939[source]
the real legal system is slow by design, to carefully review cases and ensure fairness. It should also be based on good faith. The vulnerability comes from one bad faith party flooding the system with bad faith cases and appeals (as trump is doing). Even when he fails, the process becomes the punishment for the opposing side (journalists, political opponents...). When he wins, he wins.
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hiatus ◴[] No.45052009[source]
> The vulnerability comes from one bad faith party flooding the system with bad faith cases and appeals

No, this is literally a "both sides" issue. Lawfare is not new. See the continuous legal battles over the second amendment in states like NY, NJ, and CA.

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dudefeliciano ◴[] No.45052271[source]
i was not aware of Biden or Democrat presidents filing personal lawsuits against journalists and politcal opponents...
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rayiner ◴[] No.45053198[source]
Just last week a New York intermediate appellate court overturned the $500 million fraud judgment against Trump: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/08/21/new-york-civil-frau.... Yes, it wasn't brought by Biden--but it was brought by an elected Democrat Attorney General who campaigned on "going after Trump." Note that, out of the five judge panel, three would have overturned the underlying conviction, while two would have granted a new trial, and one would have thrown the case out entirely:

> Two other judges, John Higgitt and Llinét Rosado, said James had the authority to bring the case but argued for giving Trump a new trial. And the fifth judge, Justice David Friedman, argued to throw out the case, saying James lacked the authority to bring it.

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pstuart ◴[] No.45054262[source]
The case was based on Trump's former attorney mentioning criminal acts his client had done -- it was an attempt to hold Trump accountable for those crimes.

The reason a democrat would be involved in such prosecution is because every GOP member has effectively sworn fealty to Trump and they will fiercely protect him from any accountability.

Biden was many things, but not corrupt in the sense that Trump is. Yes, his son did business trading on his relationship but that was legal (albeit distasteful).

Most dem voters dislike corruption, even if it's one of their team; I don't see that on the other side of the aisle. Disclaimer: I am not a dem.

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rayiner ◴[] No.45055435[source]
The link above is about the New York civil case.

If you're talking about the criminal case, it's even worse, as CNN's chief legal correspondent explained: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-was-convicted-... ("Most importantly, the DA's charges against Trump push the outer boundaries of the law and due process."). Or, as an MSNBC legal columnist explained: https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trump-guilty-hus... ("Most DAs wouldn’t have pursued this case against Trump. Alvin Bragg got lucky. Let’s be honest with each other. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s case against former President Donald Trump was convoluted.").

You could write an entire Harvard law review issue about the novel legal issues raised by the Trump criminal case: Can a state crime be predicted on an uncharged federal campaign finance violation? can someone violate campaign finance law--which is focused on preventing candidates from misusing donated funds--by using their own money to pay off a porn star? Can you bootstrap a misdemeanor into a felony through a triple-bank-shot involving an uncharged secondary crime and a choice of three possible tertiary crimes? When you prosecute someone for a business records misdemeanor, but almost all the allegedly bad conduct relates to unspecified secondary and tertiary crimes, how do you instruct the jury? When you give the jury three different options of uncharged tertiary crimes to support the uncharged secondary crime, which in turn supports the charged primary crime, on what points must the jury reach a unanimous decision?

Google's and Apple's "Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" was a more straightforward legal theory than the Trump criminal case.

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pstuart ◴[] No.45057354[source]
In the interest of avoiding partisan squabbling on HN, I'm going to state the following and let you walk away feeling like you "won" this debate:

  1. Trump is the epitome of a corrupt pol and has pretty much gotten away with everything his entire life.
  2. Prosecuting him was not in the form of of attacking a rival, it was addressing issue #1
  3. If the roles were reversed and this was Biden we were talking about, most dem voters would still be for prosecution of blatant corruption. The magic of Trump is that his supporters (which apparently you are one of) are fine with him doing anything he wants, up to and including shooting someone on Fifth Ave
So congratulations! You are right and I am wrong and I'm so sorry to bother you with my clearly not-Trump-loving observations.
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Amezarak ◴[] No.45058220[source]
What specifically do you disagree with in his posts? You can not like Trump and agree that it was a horrible legal case, as the sources he linked obviously do.

Another example is the Mackey case, where the appeals court unanimously overturned the entire conviction, attacking both the legal reasoning and the evidence underlying the entire case. It’s pretty clear the whole thing was cooked up to “get” an influential pro-Trump Twitter user. See: https://ww3.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/5d7bf858-ff...

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pstuart ◴[] No.45058453[source]
What specifically do you disagree with about my point that he's corrupt to the core and has never been held accountable?

The legal system bends to those in power and "justice" occasionally makes an appearance.

Meanwhile the DOJ has been weaponized to serve as the president's personal attack dogs and the entirety of the federal workforce is being staffed with only those who swear fealty to Trump, rather than the constitution and what it stands for.

IANAL, and I'm not equipped to review whatever legal fancy footwork is involved, but I am 100% confident that the Biden admin was as stand up as could be hoped for (i.e., flawed but not devoid of principles), and that Trump has only these principles:

  * self-enrichment
  * self-aggrandizement
  * deflection of any criticism or culpability
He makes GWB look great by comparison.

What rubs salt into the wound is that tens of millions of my fellow citizens literally worship him as a gift from God and will defend him to the end. Watching democracy die before my eyes is beyond heartbreaking.

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1. Amezarak ◴[] No.45058524[source]
I am not making any argument about his corruption or lack thereof. We're talking about two specific very bad legal cases using novel legal theories that should have never been brought, with people like CNN's legal correspondent agreeing, not Trump fanactics.

"Trump corrupt" !=> "this case was sound."

I also provided an example of the Mackey case, where the DoJ was weaponized to go after Trump supporters on Twitter.

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2. pstuart ◴[] No.45058936[source]
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't like the twitter case and think it was a mistake. Not as bad as the case that drove Aaron Swartz to suicide (under the Obama admin).

But to lecture on the propriety of the prosecution and declare that it was "weaponized" is a stretch. The feds have made plenty of bad decisions across both sides of the aisle, and their intentions should always be worthy of scrutiny.

The DOJ (and every other federal agency) is being gutted of anyone who does not swear fealty to Donald Trump (the person, not the office) -- that's weaponization.

I'm happy to call out each and every mistake the Biden admin does, but it's almost quaint in comparison to what his successor is doing. We've moved well past the "both sides" debate -- what is happening now is fascism and un-American to it's core. So yeah, boo hoo about the twitter case.

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3. ◴[] No.45059371[source]
4. BrenBarn ◴[] No.45059439[source]
But that is the problem. It's pointless to talk about the details of individual cases when the entire system is 100% broken. It's like arguing about what color shoes match your shirt when you're running from a burning house.