Most active commenters

    ←back to thread

    507 points martinald | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0.739s | source | bottom
    Show context
    JCM9 ◴[] No.45051717[source]
    These articles (of which there are many) all make the same basic accounting mistakes. You have to include all the costs associated with the model, not just inference compute.

    This article is like saying an apartment complex isn’t “losing money” because the monthly rents cover operating costs but ignoring the cost of the building. Most real estate developments go bust because the developers can’t pay the mortgage payment, not because they’re negative on operating costs.

    If the cash flow was truly healthy these companies wouldn’t need to raise money. If you have healthy positive cash flow you have much better mechanisms available to fund capital investment other than selling shares at increasingly inflated valuations. Eg issue a bond against that healthy cash flow.

    Fact remains when all costs are considered these companies are losing money and so long as the lifespan of a model is limited it’s going to stay ugly. Using that apartment building analogy it’s like having to knock down and rebuild the building every 6 months to stay relevant, but saying all is well because the rents cover the cost of garbage collection and the water bill. That’s simply not a viable business model.

    Update Edit: A lot of commentary below re the R&D and training costs and if it’s fair to exclude that on inference costs or “unit economics.” I’d simply say inference is just selling compute and that should be high margin, which the article concludes it is. The issue behind the growing concerns about a giant AI bubble is if that margin is sufficient to cover the costs of everything else. I’d also say that excluding the cost of the model from “unit economics” calculations doesn’t make business/math/economics since it’s literally the thing being sold. It’s not some bit of fungible equipment or long term capital expense when they become obsolete after a few months. Take away the model and you’re just selling compute so it’s really not a great metric to use to say these companies are OK.

    replies(17): >>45051757 #>>45051787 #>>45051841 #>>45051851 #>>45051914 #>>45052000 #>>45052124 #>>45052133 #>>45052139 #>>45052319 #>>45052370 #>>45052582 #>>45052624 #>>45052648 #>>45052702 #>>45053815 #>>45054029 #
    1. martinald ◴[] No.45051841[source]
    (Author here). Yes I am aware of that and did mention it. However - what I wanted to push back in this article was that claude code was completely unsustainable and therefore a flash in the pan and devs aren't at risk (I know you are not saying this).

    The models as is are still hugely useful, even if no further training was done.

    replies(2): >>45052012 #>>45052637 #
    2. Aurornis ◴[] No.45052012[source]
    > The models as is are still hugely useful, even if no further training was done.

    Exactly. The parent comment has an incorrect understanding of what unit economics means.

    The cost of training is not a factor in the marginal cost of each inference or each new customer.

    It’s unfortunate this comment thread is the highest upvoted right now when it’s based on a basic misunderstanding of unit economics.

    replies(2): >>45052084 #>>45052661 #
    3. esafak ◴[] No.45052084[source]
    The marginal cost is not the salient factor when the model has to be frequently retrained at great cost. Even if the marginal cost was driven to zero, would they profit?
    replies(2): >>45052157 #>>45052608 #
    4. Aurornis ◴[] No.45052157{3}[source]
    Unit economics are the salient factor of inference costs, which this article is about.
    replies(1): >>45052269 #
    5. ◴[] No.45052269{4}[source]
    6. wongarsu ◴[] No.45052608{3}[source]
    But they don't have to be retained frequently at great cost. Right now they are retrained frequently because everyone is frequently coming out with new models and nobody wants to fall behind. But if investment for AI were to dry up everyone would stop throwing so much money at R&D, and if everyone else isn't investing in new models you don't have to either. The models are powerful as they are, most of the knowledge in them isn't going to rapidly obsolete, and where that is a concern you can paper over it with RAG or MCP servers. If everyone runs out of money for R&D at the same time we could easily cut back to a situation where we get an updated version of the same model every 3 years instead of a bigger/better model twice a year.

    And whether companies can survive in that scenario depends almost entirely on their unit economics of inference, ignoring current R&D costs

    replies(2): >>45052928 #>>45052970 #
    7. scrollaway ◴[] No.45052637[source]
    > claude code was completely unsustainable and therefore a flash in the pan and devs aren't at risk

    How can you possibly say this if you know anything about the evolution of costs in the past year?

    Inference costs are going down constantly, and as models get better they make less mistakes which means less cycles = less inference to actually subsidize.

    This is without even looking at potential fundamental improvements in LLMs and AI in general. And with all the trillions in funding going into this sector, you can't possibly think we're anywhere near the technological peak.

    Speaking as a founder managing multiple companies: Claude Code's value is in the thousands per month /per person/ (with the proper training). This isn't a flash in the pan, this isn't even a "prediction" - the game HAS changed and anyone telling you it hasn't is trying to cover their head with highly volatile sand.

    replies(1): >>45053544 #
    8. ninetyninenine ◴[] No.45052661[source]
    I upvoted it because it aligns most closely with my own perspective. I have a strong dislike for AI and everything associated with it, so my judgment is shaped by that bias. If a post sounds realistic or complex, I have no interest in examining its nuance. I am not concerned with practical reality and prefer to accept it without thinking, so I support ideas that match my personal viewpoint.

    I don’t understand why people like you have to call this stuff out? Like most of HN thinks the way I do and that’s why the post was upvoted. Why be a contrarian? There’s really no point.

    replies(1): >>45052746 #
    9. SubiculumCode ◴[] No.45052746{3}[source]
    Is this written by a sarcastic AI?
    10. churchill ◴[] No.45052928{4}[source]
    Like we've seen with Karparthy & Murati starting their own labs, it's to be expected that over the next 5 years, hundreds of engineers & researchers at the bleeding edge will quit and start competing products. They'll reliably raise $1b to $5b in weeks, too. And it's logical: for an investor, a startup founded by a Tier 1 researcher will more reliably 10-100x your capital, vs. Anthropic & OpenAI that are already at >$250b+.

    This talent diffusion guarantees that OpenAI and Anthropic will have to keep sinking in ever more money to stay at the bleeding edge, or upstarts like DeepSeek and incumbents like Meta will simply outspend you/hire away all the Tier 1 talent to upstage you.

    The only companies that'll reliably print money off AI are TSMC and NVIDIA because they'll get paid either way. They're selling shovels and even if the gold rush ends up being a bust, they'll still do very well.

    replies(1): >>45053706 #
    11. re-thc ◴[] No.45052970{4}[source]
    > But if investment for AI were to dry up everyone would stop throwing so much money at R&D, and if everyone else isn't investing in new models you don't have to either

    IF.

    If you do stagnate for years someone will eventually decide to invest and beat you. Intel has proven so.

    replies(1): >>45053755 #
    12. martinald ◴[] No.45053544[source]
    I totally agree with you! I have heard others saying this though. But I don't think it's true.
    replies(1): >>45053683 #
    13. scrollaway ◴[] No.45053683{3}[source]
    Got it — I got confused by your wording in the post but it’s clear now.
    14. JSR_FDED ◴[] No.45053706{5}[source]
    True. But at some point the fact that there are many many players in the market will start to diminish the valuation of each of those players, don’t you think? I wonder what that point would be.
    15. simianwords ◴[] No.45053755{5}[source]
    Yeah so? How does that change anything?