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557 points gnabgib | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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tavavex ◴[] No.45049085[source]
This is a really strange comment section. The average person sharing their experiences seems very unlike the average HN user.

I feel like I can barely relate to those people, and understanding what they're saying is nigh impossible. The definitions of most things are really vague - even the article of this thread only defines breathwork as "cyclic breathing without pausing, accompanied by progressively evocative music". So... faster breathing while intensifying music is playing?

One issue for me is how anything connected to these topics seems to attract a healthy mix of rational observation, psychedelic users and religious people (old and new). Deciphering which is which is really difficult without already having a foot in the door on this topic.

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jibal ◴[] No.45049176[source]
The alarming thing is that--if you look at their other comments--they are otherwise like the average HN user.
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gentooflux ◴[] No.45049250[source]
Which is to say, hacking one's wifi router is a legitimate and worthwhile pursuit, but hacking one's mind is not?
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AlecSchueler ◴[] No.45049358[source]
I think they point more towards the dichotomy of rigorous engineering versus woo.
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omnicognate ◴[] No.45049749[source]
People very easily get confused between the vibes and reality of "rigor". It's a good exercise to consider whether particular views you hold appeal to you because of actual evidence-based analysis or just because they feel science-like to you.

To pick a random example in two directions:

1. "The thoughts, ideas and feelings experienced by a human mind consist of patterns of neurons firing": you'll read this often on HN from people who think of themselves as rational, and it is usually stated in relation to the idea that those thoughts, ideas and feelings can also be experienced by a suitable computer program. This isn't remotely rigorous, though. There are certainly arguments that can be made in favour of it, but there are also arguments against and the whole debate properly belongs to philosophy at this stage, not science, as the questions involved aren't even properly formulated let alone experimentally validated. What science actually tells us is that neurons fire, that there are observable relationships between neuron firing and external stimuli and motor action and that the firing of particular neurons affects the firing of other neurons. Science gives us detailed mechanisms for some of these relationships, and ways of influencing them. This is a vast body of knowledge, but nowhere does it contain the conclusion that "the thoughts, ideas and feelings experienced by a human mind consist of patterns of neurons firing". Perhaps some day it will, once the question of "neural coding" is solved (along with many other such questions) and we've experimentally verified that reproducing a firing pattern alone is sufficient to replicate a subjective experience. Until then the statement isn't science, to the extent that it isn't even formulated in a way that can be supported or opposed by science. It just feels sciencey to some people and that's enough for them.

2. "Meditation can alter the subjective perception of time": This might sound more "woo" than the above, but it's a lot less so. It can quite easily be stated in way that can be quantified and experimentally validated/falsified, and there are studies that have explored it (I have no views on the quality of them). The outcome is not even surprising - time seems to pass more slowly when you sit still and breathe deeply, what a shock!

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AlecSchueler ◴[] No.45049840{3}[source]
I certainly wouldn't argue with that point but I think if you ignore your made up examples and actually look elsewhere in the thread you'll agree as well that the criticism above was not misplaced.
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1. omnicognate ◴[] No.45049862{4}[source]
I'm not saying the comments on this post are rigorous. I'm saying the ones elsewhere on HN are not. I therefore see rather less of a disparity between these comments and "the average HN user" than the commenter at the top of this thread. It's just more obvious to them because they don't agree with what's being said.

(Edit: That said, my example 2 seems pretty relevant to at least some of the comments here, no? Eg. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45048410. And my example 1 isn't at all made up: it's a claim made very frequently on HN, and usually implied to be self-evident.)