←back to thread

346 points Kye | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.966s | source
Show context
favflam ◴[] No.45016762[source]
This situation feels dumb. I feel like I am watching idiots cheer on someone doing parkor and that person getting his teeth smashed on a wall. Like, what is the point?
replies(6): >>45016813 #>>45016814 #>>45016833 #>>45016847 #>>45016851 #>>45017297 #
mullingitover ◴[] No.45016847[source]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

- H. L. Mencken

replies(2): >>45016924 #>>45017479 #
uncircle ◴[] No.45016924[source]
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

- Winston Churchill [disputed]

replies(1): >>45016993 #
coryrc ◴[] No.45016993[source]
What's your alternative?

I'm serious.

(Mine is multi-member ranked voting (NOT IRV)).

replies(3): >>45017082 #>>45017380 #>>45017410 #
zahlman ◴[] No.45017410[source]
"Democracy" is the form of government; you are speaking of voting systems, which are an implementation detail, and not in the same natural category. "Alternatives to democracy" are things like despotism, monarchy, communism, fascism etc.
replies(2): >>45017613 #>>45018543 #
coryrc ◴[] No.45018543[source]
It's a spectrum. If we're being pedantic, the US is already not a Democracy, but a Democratic Republic.
replies(2): >>45020645 #>>45033335 #
runarberg ◴[] No.45020645[source]
I don‘t think it is a spectrum either (if we are even more pedantic), or at least no a linear scale spectrum, but rather a system of government where democratic institutions ensure certain rights and privileges to common citizens and residents. So maybe a multidimensional spectrum where if you fail to meet a vaguely defined and constantly evolving threshold you are not a democracy.

The USA today will probably (and hopefully) not be considered a democracy by some future standard. Disqualifications may include:

* limited suffrage,

* limited or unequal access to health care and education for a significant portion of the population,

* convoluted voting system where certain demographics have little to no chance to pursue public office,

* large constituencies,

* non-state territories/districts with little to no representation at the national level,

* unincorporated populated areas, with little to no representation at the local level,

* a lack of clear separation of power between the different democratic institution,

* failure to enact popular policies,

* police violence,

* the death penalty,

* a large wealth gap,

* a lack of consumer protection,

* a lack of worker rights,

* failure to prosecute the rich and powerful for their crimes,

* a large nuclear armed military which constantly engages in imperialist actions,

* failure to respect the sovereignty of other states,

* etc.

I think describing this system as a Democratic Republic offers no insight into whether it is democratic or not (or how democratic it is on this spectrum). Republic just means that there is a president which holds some the executive power.

There is far more insight into calling the USA a capitalistic aristocracy, a two party state, a militaristic imperial superpower, a flawed, unequal, and underrepresented democracy, a police state, etc.

replies(1): >>45033350 #
1. zahlman ◴[] No.45033350[source]
> Disqualifications may include

I don't see why; many of those have nothing to do with what I would understand the concept of "democracy" to entail.

replies(1): >>45034036 #
2. runarberg ◴[] No.45034036[source]
I am predicting (and hoping) that the concept of democracy will continue to shift towards ever greater inclusion and increased human rights as it has in the past two centuries, and a future vision of democracy would disqualify the current system as undemocratic for some of the points above.

Just like how we don’t view pre-civil rights USA as democratic by modern standards. For example, we would never consider a country with legalized slavery to be democratic today. Similarly a future concept of democracy is unlikely to consider a country which practices the death penalty to be democratic by that hypothetical future standard.

replies(1): >>45046740 #
3. coryrc ◴[] No.45046740[source]
I would consider a country with universal suffrage, direct democracy, and legalized slavery to be a Democracy. It's unlikely and pretty shitty, but it's certainly a Democracy.

This twisting of definitions is the same thing happening to "racist". Some people only consider what was previously called "systemic racism" to be the singular definition of "racism" and pretend the old definition does not exist.

replies(1): >>45046910 #
4. runarberg ◴[] No.45046910{3}[source]
I wouldn’t, and neither would most people, and neither would most in academia. At some point (probably around the 1960s) both human rights and equal rights became integral to the concept of democracy. You may not like it, but that is how most people (and most academics) use the concept. The standards for human rights and equal rights are also evolving and today includes stuff like indigenous rights, equal access, universal education, etc.

In the 1970s people were debating whether Apartheid South Africa was democratic or not (it obviously wasn’t; not even by the standards of the time) and today people are debating whether Israel is a democracy (again; it obviously isn’t) but if we apply the standards of the 1940s to both Apartheid South Africa, and today’s Israel, they would both be considered democratic.

And just to clarify, the concept of racism is equally evolving. Much of what we consider racist today would not have been considered racist in the 1980s. The (then considered non-racist) behavior of the 1980s was equally harmful as the same behavior today. But humanity has simply learned, and updated the concept of racism to include this behavior. This is the nature of knowledge and the human experience, we learn more things, and adjust our concepts to fit with our ever increasing knowledge.