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447 points stephenheron | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.849s | source

Hi,

My daily workhorse is a M1 Pro that I purchased on release date, It has been one of the best tech purchases I have made, even now it really deals with anything I throw at it. My daily work load is regularly having a Android emulator, iOS simulator and a number of Dockers containers running simultaneously and I never hear the fans, battery life has taken a bit of a hit but it is still very respectable.

I wanted a new personal laptop, and I was debating between a MacBook Air or going for a Framework 13 with Linux. I wanted to lean into learning something new so went with the Framework and I must admit I am regretting it a bit.

The M1 was released back in 2020 and I bought the Ryzen AI 340 which is one of the newest 2025 chips from AMD, so AMD has 5 years of extra development and I had expected them to get close to the M1 in terms of battery efficiency and thermals.

The Ryzen is using a TSMC N4P process compared to the older N5 process, I managed to find a TSMC press release showing the performance/efficiency gains from the newer process: “When compared to N5, N4P offers users a reported +11% performance boost or a 22% reduction in power consumption. Beyond that, N4P can offer users a 6% increase in transistor density over N5”

I am sorely disappointed, using the Framework feels like using an older Intel based Mac. If I open too many tabs in Chrome I can feel the bottom of the laptop getting hot, open a YouTube video and the fans will often spin up.

Why haven’t AMD/Intel been able to catch up? Is x86 just not able to keep up with the ARM architecture? When can we expect a x86 laptop chip to match the M1 in efficiency/thermals?!

To be fair I haven’t tried Windows on the Framework yet it might be my Linux setup being inefficient.

Cheers, Stephen

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stego-tech ◴[] No.45026880[source]
There’s a number of reasons, all of which in concert create the appearance of a performance gap between the two:

* Apple has had decades optimizing its software and hardware stacks to the demands of its majority users, whereas Intel and AMD have to optimize for a much broader scope of use cases.

* Apple was willing to throw out legacy support on a regular basis. Intel and AMD, by comparison, are still expected to run code written for DOS or specific extensions in major Enterprises, which adds to complexity and cost

* The “standard” of x86 (and demand for newly-bolted-on extensions) means effort into optimizations for efficiency or performance meet diminishing returns fairly quickly. The maturity of the platform also means the “easy” gains are long gone/already done, and so it’s a matter of edge cases and smaller tweaks rather than comprehensive redesigns.

* Software in x86 world is not optimized, broadly, because it doesn’t have to be. The demoscene shows what can be achieved in tight performance envelopes, but software companies have never had reason to optimize code or performance when next year has always promised more cores or more GHz.

It boils down to comparing two different products and asking why they can’t be the same. Apple’s hardware is purpose-built for its userbase, operating systems, and software; x86 is not, and never has been. Those of us who remember the 80s and 90s of SPARC/POWER/Itanium/etc recall that specialty designs often performed better than generalist ones in their specialties, but lacked compatibility as a result.

The Apple ARM vs Intel/AMD x86 is the same thing.

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lokar ◴[] No.45027473[source]
It’s a bit unfair to say apple threw out backwards compatibility.

Each time they had a pretty good emulation story to keep most stuff (certainly popular stuff) working through a multi-year transition period.

IMO, this is better then carrying around 40 years of cruft.

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alt227 ◴[] No.45027608[source]
Apple purposely make it so after 3 new versions of the OS you cannot upgrade the OS on the hardware any further. This in turn means you cannot install new software as the applications themselves require the newer versions of the OS. It has been this way on apple hardware for decades, and has laid the foundation of not ever needing to provide backwards compatibility for more than a few years as well as forcing new hardware purchases. The 'emulation story' only needs to work for a couple of generations, then it itself can be sunsetted and is not expected to be backwards compatible with newer OSes. It is also the reason it is pretty much impossible to upgrade CPUs in Apple machines.

> IMO, this is better then carrying around 40 years of cruft.

Backwards compatibility is such a strong point, it is why windows survives even though it has become a bloated ad riddled mess. You can argue which is better, but that seriously depends on your requirements. If you have a business application coded 30 years ago on x86 that no developer in your company understands any more, then backwards compatibility is king. On the other end of the spectrum if you are happy to be purchasing new software subscriptions constantly and having bleeding edge hardware is a must for you, then backwards compatibility probably isnt required.

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1. commakozzi ◴[] No.45030283[source]
> Apple purposely make it so after 3 new versions of the OS you cannot upgrade the OS on the hardware any further

"oh a post about Apple, let me come in and share my hatred for Apple again by outright lying!"

As stated already, macOS 26 runs on the M1 and even the 2019 Macbook Pro. So i think i know where you got the "3 new versions" figure, and it's a dark and smelly place.

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2. alt227 ◴[] No.45030556[source]
Apologies I was under the impression that the major OS release was every 2 years, and so I equated 6 years into 3 releases. No need to be quite so rude when you could just factually correct.

However My parents 2017 Macbook pro can only upgrade to Ventura, which is a 2022 release. 5 years and that $2.5k baby was obselete. However rude you are about your defense of Apple, 5-6 years until software starts being unable to install is pretty shitty. I use 30 year old apps daily on windows with no issue.

Looks like defending Apple is the smelly place to be judging by your tone and condescending snark.

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3. commakozzi ◴[] No.45032828[source]
If you truly believed major releases were every 2 years, then i apologize, but i thought my "objectionable commentary" was fairly light on the snark. It's quite trendy to hate on Apple, so i assumed you were one of those. I don't honestly care, but what i do care about is when people lie about things to try to make a point. It's been happening more often lately it seems and i quickly respond when i think i see it.
4. lokar ◴[] No.45033128[source]
It's a real trade-off.

I don't really know why windows is so very very bad, I just assume it has a lot to do with all the compatibility. If that's the case, then I prefer the Apple approach.

5. filoeleven ◴[] No.45033664[source]
> My parents 2017 Macbook pro can only upgrade to Ventura, which is a 2022 release. 5 years and that $2.5k baby was obselete.

Meanwhile, in [Windows land], > Microsoft has provided the minimum and feature-specific device specifications required for upgrading to Windows 11. A number of devices will meet these requirements, however devices with legacy BIOS or without a Trusted Platform Module (TPM 2.0) are not compatible for the upgrade.

> Microsoft also provided a full list of supported Intel processors; however this loosely translates to compatibility with Intel's 8th-generation processors and newer, meaning devices produced within the last 6-7 years have a high chance of being compatible.

Sure looks like Apple's support of old machines is in line with Windows here.

[Windows land] https://www.rm.com/blog/2024/may/a-surprising-number-of-pcs-...