Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

I’ve been thinking a lot about getting something from Framework, as I like their ethos around relatability. However, I currently have an M1 Pro which works just fine, so I’ve been kicking the can down the road while worrying that it just won’t be up to par in terms of what I’m used to from Apple. Not just the processor, but everything. Even in the Intel Mac days, I ended up buying a Asus Zephyrus G14, which had nothing but glowing reviews from everyone. I hated it and sold it within 6 months. There is a level of polish that I haven’t seen on any x86 laptop, which makes it really hard for me to venture outside of Apple’s sandbox.

> There is a level of polish

Yeah, those glossy mirror-like displays in which you see yourself much better than the displayed content are polished really well

> "There is a level of polish that I haven’t seen on any x86 laptop, which makes it really hard for me to venture outside of Apple’s sandbox."

Hah, it's exactly the other way around for me; I can't stand Apple's hardware. But then again I never bought anything Asus... let alone gamer laptops.

Having used both types extensively my dell matte display diffuses the reflections so badly that you can’t see a damn thing. The one that replaced it was even worse.

I’ll take the apple display any day. It’s bright enough to blast through any reflections.

I suspect the majority of people who recommend particular x86 laptops have only had x86 laptops. There’s a lot of disparity in quality between brands and models.

Apple is just off the side somewhere else.

What exactly is wrong with Apple hardware?

Most manufacturers just don't give a shit. Had the exact same experience with a well-reviewed Acer laptop a while back, ended up getting rid of it a few months in because of constant annoyances, replaced with a MacBook Air that lasted for many years. A few years back, I got one of the popular Asus NUCs that came without networking drivers installed. I'm guessing those were on the CD that came with it, but not particularly helpful on a PC without a CD drive. The same SKU came with a variety of networking hardware from different manufacturers, without any indication of which combination I had, so trial and error it was. Zero chance non-techy people would get either working on their own.

For me, the keyboards in the UK have an awful layout.

Not sure why they can follow ANSI in the US but not ISO here. I just have to override the layout and ignore the symbols.

I recently upgraded from an M1 mac book pro 15", which I was pretty happy with, to the M4 max pro 16". I've been extremely impressed with the new laptop. The key metric I use to judge performance is build speed for our main project. It's a thing I do a few dozen times per day. The M1 took about four minutes to run our integration tests. I should add that those tests run in parallel and make heavy use of docker. There are close to 300 integration tests and a few unit tests. Each of those hit the database, Redis, and Elasticsearch. The M4 Pro dropped that to 40 seconds. Each individual test might take a few seconds. It seems to be benefiting a lot from both the faster CPU with lots of cores and the increased amount of memory and memory bandwidth. Whatever it is, I'm seriously impressed with this machine. It costs a lot new but on a three year lease, it boils down to about 100 euros per month. Totally worth it for me. And I'm kind of kicking myself for not upgrading earlier.

Before the M1, I was stuck using an intel core i5 running arch linux. My intel mac managed to die months before the M1 came out. Let's just say that the M1 really made me appreciate how stupidly slow that intel hardware is. I was losing lots of time doing builds. The laptop would be unusable during those builds.

Life is too short for crappy hardware. From a software point of view, I could live with Linux but not with Windows. But the hardware is a show stopper currently. I need something that runs cool and yet does not compromise on performance. And all the rest (non-crappy trackpad, amazingly good screen, cool to the touch, good battery life, etc.). And manages to look good too. I'm not aware of any windows/linux laptop that does not heavily compromise on at least a few of those things. I'm pretty sure I can get a fast laptop. But it'd be hot and loud and have the unusable synaptics trackpad. And a mediocre screen. Etc. In short, I'd be missing my mac.

Apple is showing some confidence by just designing a laptop that isn't even close to being cheap. This thing was well over 4K euros. Worth every penny. There aren't a lot of intel/amd laptops in that price class. Too much penny pinching happening in that world. People think nothing of buying a really expensive car to commute to work. But they'll cut on the thing that they use the whole day when they get there. That makes no sense whatsoever in my view.

I had a 2020 Zephyrus G14 - also bought it largely because of the reviews.

First two years it was solid, but then weird stuff started happening like the integrated GPU running full throttle at all times and sleep mode meaning "high temperature and fans spinning to do exactly nothing" (that seems to be a Windows problem because my work machine does the same).

Meanwhile the manufacturer, having released a new model, lost interest, so no firmware updates to address those issues.

I currently have the Framework 16 and I'm happy with it, but I wouldn't recommend it by default.

I for one bought it because I tend to damage stuff like screens and ports and it also enables me to have unusual arrangements like a left-handed numpad - not exactly mainstream requirements.

I very much prefer penabled detachables, a much better form factor than the outdated classic laptop, with a focus on general-purpose computing, such as HP's ZBook x2 G4 detachable workstation. The ideal machine would be a second iteration of that design, just updated to be smaller as well as more performant and repairable. Of course that's not gonna happen, as there's, apart from legal issues, no money in it.

Apple on the other hand doesn't offer such machines... actually never has. To me, prizing maintainability, expandability, modularity, etc., their laptops are completely undesireable even within the confines of their outdated form factor; their efficient performance is largely irrelevant, and their tablets are much too enshittified to warrant consideration. And that's before we get into the OS and eco-system aspects. :)

Considering the amount of engineering that goes into Apple's laptops, and compared to other professional tools, 4000 EUR is extremely cheap. Other tradespeople have to spend 10x more.

I'm in the same boat. Still running an MBP M1 Pro 14". Luckily I bought with 32GB in 2021 when it came out so it can run all things docker similar to your setup. I recently ran a production like workload, real stress test, it was the first time I had the fan spinning constantly but it was still responsive and a pleasure to use (and sit next to!) for a few hours.

I've been window shopping for a couple of months now, have test run Linux and really liking the experience there (played on older Intel hardware). I am completely de-appled software-wise, with the 1 exception of iMessages because of my kids using ipads. But that's really about it. So, I'm ready to jump.

But so far, all my research hasn't lead to anything where I would be convinced not to regret in the end. A desktop Ryzen 7700 or 9600X would probably suffice, but it would mean I need to constantly switch machines and I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. All mobile non-macs have significant downsides and you can't even try before you buy anywhere typically. So you'd be relying on reviews. But everybody has a different tolerance for changes like track pad haptics, thermals, noise, screen quality etc. So, those reviews don't give enough confidence. I've had 13 Apple years so far. First 5 were pleasant, next 3 really sucked but since Apple silicon I feel I have totally forgotten all the suffering in the non-Apple world and with those noisy, slow Intel Macs.

I think it has to boil down to serious reasons why the Apple hardware is not fit for one's purpose. Be it better gaming, extreme amount of storage, insane amount of RAM, all while ignoring the value of "the perfect package" and it's low power draw, low noise etc. Something that does not make one regret the change. DHH has done it and so have others, but he switched to Framework Desktop AI Max. So it came with a change in lifestyle. And he also does gaming, that's another good reason (to switch to Linux or dual boot (as he mentioned Fortnite)).

I don't have such reasons currently. Unless we see hardware that is at least as fast and enjoyable like the M1 Pro or higher. I tried Asahi but it's quite cumbersome with the dual boot and also DP Alt not there yet and maybe never will, so I gave up on that.

So, I'll wait another year and will see then. I hope I don't get my company to buy me an M4 Max Ultra or so as that will ruin my desire to switch for 10 more years I guess.

The M4 was the first chip that tempted me to upgrade from the M1, which I think is the case for most people. At work, I’m at the mercy of the corporate lease. My personal Mac doesn’t get used in a way where I’ll see a major change, so I’m giving it a while longer.

I’ve actually been debating moving from the Pro to the Air. The M4 is about on par with the M1 Pro for a lot of things. But it’s not that much smaller, so I’d be getting a lateral performance move and losing ports, so I’m going to wait and see what the future holds.

My venture outside of MacBooks included a Dell XPS. Supposed to be their high end, and that year's model was well reviewed by multiple sources.... yet I returned it after like a week. The fan would not only run far too often but the sound it made was also atrocious. I have no clue if mine was defective or if all the reviewers are deaf to high frequencies. And the body was so flimsy that I would grab the corner of the laptop to move it and end up triggering a mouse click.