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202 points helsinkiandrew | 41 comments | | HN request time: 2.104s | source | bottom
1. findthewords ◴[] No.44645035[source]
Preventative treatment for disease is ten, hundred, thousand times cheaper than treatment ex post facto.
replies(4): >>44645054 #>>44646406 #>>44653377 #>>44657121 #
2. fxtentacle ◴[] No.44645054[source]
Only if you have an excellent health insurance plan. Otherwise, preventive treatment costs you money, while curative treatment is paid for you.

Sounds like a misguided incentive ...

replies(3): >>44645175 #>>44645536 #>>44646096 #
3. nmstoker ◴[] No.44645175[source]
I think you may be missing the point: preventative treatment is typically much less expensive, for instance behaviour and dietary changes do not require drugs at all and avoiding some conditions can be helped by drugs which have long since come off patents.

But even with your point, all insurance companies I've ever had cover with in the UK have had some element of support for preventing illness (periodic assessments, support material and trackers) and, at least with people covered under company schemes, they clearly have an incentive to offer more if you are at risk of becoming affected by a preventable illness.

4. DarmokJalad1701 ◴[] No.44645536[source]
My insurance covers annual bloodwork/physicals as well as immunizations. I am pretty sure most health insurance policies do.
replies(2): >>44646332 #>>44648394 #
5. xedrac ◴[] No.44646096[source]
So exercise, eating healthy, fasting, brushing/flossing teeth, consistent sleep schedule, daily sun exposure, good relationships, and stress management all depend on a health insurance plan?
replies(2): >>44646179 #>>44697665 #
6. HPsquared ◴[] No.44646179{3}[source]
You certainly need to "pay" for those yourself, insurance or not (I guess that's probably your point). Going for a run doesn't go on any billing schedule or contribute to GDP, it's all self-funded from your own personal resources of time and energy.
replies(2): >>44646814 #>>44649275 #
7. Aurornis ◴[] No.44646332{3}[source]
The ACA made this standard. It’s been like this for a long time.

When we were hiring a lot of people out of college, I spent way more time than I expected teaching them about how healthcare works and how to find their own information. We found that a lot of them would build their idea about how health insurance works from years of reading Reddit posts: They thought visiting the doctor was always going to be a $1000 bill or a single accident was going to medically bankrupt them, because those are the stories they saw on Reddit. I would explain things like the free annual physical and many just wouldn’t believe me. It’s really tough to cut through the confusion out there.

replies(2): >>44647431 #>>44648256 #
8. Aurornis ◴[] No.44646406[source]
This holds true for many things. It’s easier to stay in shape and maintain a healthy weight than it is to recover from getting out of shape or overweight. The longer someone spends out of shape or overweight, the harder it becomes to escape the cycle. There’s no better time to start than now.

As for preventative medical treatment: This one is a difficult topic. There’s a popular misconception that getting a lot of different blood tests and imaging scans is a good idea to identify conditions early, but most people don’t understand that these tests (including imagine) are prone to a lot of false positives. Excessive testing has been shown time and time again to lead to unnecessary interventions, leading to worse outcomes on average. A number of previously routine medical tests are now not recommended until later age or until other symptoms appear because routine testing was producing too many unnecessary interventions, producing a net negative benefit.

It’s a hard concept to wrap our heads around when we’re so attached to the idea that more testing means better information. It’s a huge problem in the alternative medicine community where podcast grifters will encourage people to get various tests like organic acid tests or various “levels” testing, then prescribe complex treatment programs with dozens of supplements. The people chasing these tests then throw themselves far out of balance with excess supplements while sinking thousands of dollars into repeat testing

replies(2): >>44646950 #>>44647208 #
9. ap99 ◴[] No.44646814{4}[source]
We pay either way. Pay to stay healthy or pay to stop being sick.

You only get so many chances to be sick before you can't come back from one, or it alters your life so severely you'd wish you were dead anyways.

I'll opt for paying to stay healthy.

replies(1): >>44647202 #
10. FabHK ◴[] No.44646950[source]
Any opinion on Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia? He seems fairly fact-based, but does recommend several diagnostics.
replies(2): >>44651917 #>>44655687 #
11. pixl97 ◴[] No.44647202{5}[source]
Sam Vimes 'Boots' Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness

>The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

>Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

>But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

replies(1): >>44649345 #
12. the__alchemist ◴[] No.44647208[source]
This sounds like an example of a fault in how to take action based on results vice a fault in getting too much data. Perhaps the conclusion you state about the better approach being to forego tests is true. For example, if emotional and legal factors prevent patients and providers from acting rationally here. Optimistically, we can do better.
13. hattmall ◴[] No.44647431{4}[source]
But if they do anything other than extremely basic tests, like blood pressure at the "free annual physical" you will be billed, ridiculous amounts you have no way of knowing in advance.
replies(1): >>44652522 #
14. KittenInABox ◴[] No.44648256{4}[source]
I would argue this has severe caveats. I knew a girl in college who was billed over 400$ to test for PCOS, which is one of those diseases that 1) affects just women 2) is underdiagnosed but has severe systemic effects like facial hair growth, diabetes and obesity...
15. rsync ◴[] No.44648394{3}[source]
An important nit I need to pick…

These are items you receive along with your insurance.

They are not insurable events and they are not “covered” like an insurable event.

Predictable, regularly occurring events cannot be covered by insurance by definition. You can’t adjust it, you can’t assemble a risk pool, etc.

We use the word “insurance” to mean “nice things that I like” but I think we’d have more enthusiasm for socialized medicine if we knew how much of “insurance” was nothing of the sort.

replies(1): >>44651226 #
16. nradov ◴[] No.44649275{4}[source]
What a bizarre way of looking at the basic maintenance necessary to keep your body working.
replies(1): >>44653585 #
17. nradov ◴[] No.44649345{6}[source]
What the heck does the price of boots have to do with any of this? All footwear eventually wears out, and if you're talking about athletic shoes the more expensive ones are often less durable (they can improve performance a little).
replies(1): >>44651629 #
18. nradov ◴[] No.44651226{4}[source]
That's not quite correct. Many patients forgo preventive screening procedures even when they're free (to the patient). Medical insurer actuaries are aware of this and price policies accordingly.
19. anonymars ◴[] No.44651629{7}[source]
Sheesh, it's an analogy. If you can spend afford to spend a little more money now (on preventative care) it can help being ruined later.

Fpr example, paying for a diabetic's insulin/blood sugar testing vs. amputating a limb, with the bonus of a working individual now likely ending up on disability

replies(2): >>44652258 #>>44652741 #
20. timr ◴[] No.44651917{3}[source]
He’s better than most, in that he puts disclaimers on things that aren’t rigorously proven. That said, he talks a lot in that book about things that aren’t actionable, even if they were rigorously proven - such as the coronary calcium scan.

If you get a high score on that test, what are you going to do? Eat better, lose weight and exercise. So skip the test and just do that instead.

replies(1): >>44652551 #
21. nradov ◴[] No.44652258{8}[source]
That's a bad analogy and poor example. Preventing type-2 diabetes (the vast majority of cases) is literally free.
replies(1): >>44653191 #
22. jerlam ◴[] No.44652522{5}[source]
During these "free" preventative checkups, if your doctor asks if you have any other medical issues to discuss, having an answer other than "no" can change the visit from a free preventative visit into a standard non-free office visit.
23. nradov ◴[] No.44652551{4}[source]
A high coronary calcium score factors into the decision about whether to apply more aggressive pharmacologic interventions. Those have risks and side effects so unlike the lifestyle factors you mentioned they aren't appropriate for everyone.
replies(1): >>44653504 #
24. xedrac ◴[] No.44652741{8}[source]
Interestingly, you prevent diabetes by abstaining from buying/eating food. Fasting is an amazing thing for the body, and it's completely free.
replies(2): >>44653186 #>>44653279 #
25. ◴[] No.44653186{9}[source]
26. anonymars ◴[] No.44653191{9}[source]
Anything to miss the point, eh?

The point being, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" - if you can afford it

replies(1): >>44654324 #
27. anonymars ◴[] No.44653279{9}[source]
That's awesome, let's get the message out to the 2 million people in the US with Type 1 diabetes straightaway!
28. mlyons1340 ◴[] No.44653377[source]
Actually the conversion rate is 1 oz prevention = 1 lb cure. 1/16
29. timr ◴[] No.44653504{5}[source]
I didn’t say the tests have no use, but trust me: if you’re otherwise well and don’t have symptoms, nobody is making aggressive pharmacological interventions based on the calcium scan.

This is why, historically, they were rarely used.

replies(1): >>44654310 #
30. s1artibartfast ◴[] No.44653585{5}[source]
Not wrong tho. If there were no costs then surely everyone would do it.
31. nradov ◴[] No.44654310{6}[source]
I am aware that is the current standard clinical practice. Dr. Attia's argument is that we could cut death rates in such patients by starting aggressive pharmacological intervention much earlier in the disease progression. From a physiological perspective that makes some sense, although there haven't been any studies to show whether that cuts all-cause mortality.
replies(1): >>44654419 #
32. nradov ◴[] No.44654324{10}[source]
You're really missing the point. Anyone can afford the most effective types of prevention.
replies(1): >>44655596 #
33. timr ◴[] No.44654419{7}[source]
Yeah, I get it. I read the book. I think his argument is wrong.

The point I am making is that for the “worried well” (aka “longevity enthusiasts”) you aren’t going to do anything differently based on the result. It's largely a waste of money for the sake of people who want to feel like they're Doing Something (tm).

If you really think about it, you're talking about the extremely marginal case where a) the patient had no prior symptom of an illness; b) the calcium scan is so bad that you'd put the person on a medication to manage a hypothetical future problem; and c) you weren't going to do it anyway based on other tests.

The three things together are vanishingly unlikely. The better argument, mayyyyybe, is that maybe the test is one of those things that motivates a certain type of person (again, the "longevity enthusiast") to do something they otherwise wouldn't do, but that kind of person seems like...the kind of person who wants to do things. So what is the goal?

See also: Vo2max, DEXA scans, and most of the other tests mentioned in the book. Great for nerding out on metrics, but...you aren't going to do anything you weren't already doing if you're the type of person to be getting the test in the first place.

replies(1): >>44656070 #
34. anonymars ◴[] No.44655596{11}[source]
This assertion is extremely privileged and I heartily disagree with it

Even if we're just going to say "diet and exercise" it is a privilege to not live in a food desert and have sidewalks. If we are to mention the free yearly physical it's a privilege to have a doctor nearby and be able to get the time off work

So no, I don't think I am the one missing the point

replies(1): >>44683501 #
35. vismit2000 ◴[] No.44655687{3}[source]
Chapter-level summary: https://www.booksummary.pro/Outlive_summary.html
36. derbOac ◴[] No.44656070{8}[source]
I'm not sure I disagree with your general argument but it's worth noting that aerobic sport forums are replete with examples of people who were considered extremely fit, right up until the moment they were in an ambulance due to an undetected issue that could have been anticipated with a scan.

Testing in general gets out of control but we as a medical community also have a problem I think of not identifying certain problems until it's too late. Some preventative testing could be done more, some less.

replies(1): >>44673253 #
37. rkangel ◴[] No.44657121[source]
To me, this is the strongest argument for a centralised health system, such as the UK NHS.

When you have one organisation responsible for health as a whole rather than just treatment, you can make better decisions. The usual example I give is that it's cheaper to give out the contraceptive pill than deal with pregnancies, but the same thinking applies to broader disease and health.

38. timr ◴[] No.44673253{9}[source]
> aerobic sport forums are replete with examples of people who were considered extremely fit, right up until the moment they were in an ambulance due to an undetected issue that could have been anticipated with a scan.

The primary lesson from this is to ignore stories you read in aerobic sport forums.

This kind of (usually apocryphal) tale is an example of the turtles, rabbits and birds allegory [1]. Testing is like a fence around a farmer's field -- it may catch rabbits, but it's useless for turtles (who will be caught, but move too slowly to matter) and birds (since you can't catch them with a fence). The "super fit person who randomly drops dead" is the very definition of a "bird" -- even if you assume the test is sensitive enough to catch the rare thing before it happens (usually not), you have the dual problems of timing (i.e. are you going to test daily?) and false positives for whatever rate of testing you do choose.

In real life, almost nobody has an illness that moves so quickly that it requires special screening, but so slowly that it can be stopped, or at least, that has a positive risk/reward ratio for the testing required to detect it. It's the fundamental problem of medical testing, and even most of the recommended tests have a very small expected benefit.

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4865494/

39. xedrac ◴[] No.44683501{12}[source]
I would assert that nearly anyone can find a place to walk, or climb stairs, even if it's while they eat or work. Healthy food may be harder to come by for some, either because of expense or lack of availability. But again, fasting is a great protection against so many modern eating related problems, like type 2 diabetes and heart disease. The point is that nearly everyone can improve their preventative standing, even the less fortunate.
replies(1): >>44690086 #
40. anonymars ◴[] No.44690086{13}[source]
It baffles me that an offhand example not applying 100% of the time is used to dismiss the broader point as invalid and/or ridiculous. Though I now notice that even the original point with shoes was treated the same way: "in this single pedantic example with running shoes the situation doesn't hold, therefore I reject the entire idea as invalid"

No one is saying "all medical issues are more expensive if you're poor" or "it's impossible to be healthier if you're poor." All of that is fantastic, but it in no way disproves the catch-22 that it is often more expensive to be poor, in many ways, including medicine. Particularly in the US with its clusterfuck confusopoly of copayments, coinsurance, deductibles, and so on, so the mere act of going to any doctor is a gamble

41. DarmokJalad1701 ◴[] No.44697665{3}[source]
Well, it doesn't have to "depend" on the health insurance plans. But there are definitely ones that reward you in some way for doing some/all of these. Mine literally gives me cash back for doing an annual physical.