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243 points greesil | 9 comments | | HN request time: 0.626s | source | bottom
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apples_oranges ◴[] No.44636362[source]
Looking at the picture, I wonder if complexity of these devices will significantly be reduced once it finally works. I assume a lot of the bells and whistles are needed to find the way, but once it's found..
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1. empath75 ◴[] No.44637055[source]
The real problem with fusion power is that even if they figure it out, it still won't be cost competitive with solar and wind.

Economically all the cost of building a "boil some water and turn some turbines" plant is _already_ in the "boiling some water and turning some turbines" part of the generation, and even if the heat part of it was _free_, the rest of it would be too expensive to bother building a plant for it, compared to just building solar and wind generation and some better batteries.

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2. ericd ◴[] No.44637428[source]
True if you look at the cost to build the plant, but it’s hard to colocate enough solar with heavy users, land near there is expensive, and transmission capacity is pretty hard to get built, so something very power dense with a small footprint is helpful. I haven’t dug into the numbers, so I could very well be wrong that it pencils out when you consider those.

And there are efforts to make building out transmission and interconnecting with the grid more streamlined, so maybe some of those problems will be gone by the time fusion’s ready.

Someone said recently that it’s nicer to have bad laws and good tech than a bad tech and good laws, solar+storage seems like it’s in the former now, and if we can clear the bureaucratic hurdles, we’ll see it boom here like we’ve seen elsewhere.

3. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.44639322[source]
> real problem with fusion power is that even if they figure it out, it still won't be cost competitive with solar and wind

This is difficult to say when comparing an emerging technology with an established technology in an emerging economy.

Based on every historical prior, it would be surprising if there weren't diminishing returns to solar and wind. And I wouldn't underestimate the degree to which power is, in part, fashion. Today we value emissions. Tomorrow it may be preserving and expanding wild spaces.

On a practical level, fusion research doesn't compete with solar and wind deployment. Pursuing both is optimal.

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4. vilhelm_s ◴[] No.44640083[source]
Batteries are nowhere near that cheap.

Currently the cheapest non-intermittent energy source is gas; solar costs about half as much, and nuclear costs 50% more than gas [0]. Battery storage is currently competitive with gas for storing around 4 hours of electricity [1].

If we would want to replace the baseload with solar + batteries we would need to store 12 hours instead, during the dark half of the day, so it would cost 3x as much, 200% more than gas.

Maybe we can hope for battery prices to drop, but extrapolating from a Wright's law curve, for them to become cheaper by a factor of 3 we need to produce 32 times as many of them [1, again], it won't happen in the near future.

[0] https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/electricity_generation/pdf/... [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/mnaEgW9JgiochnES2/2024-was-t...

5. hadlock ◴[] No.44641737[source]
This completely ignores the need for baseload generation. Wind and solar will probably always be cheaper, but the power grid will likely always need a diverse array of power supplies. If your photovalic cell factories get bombed, how will you make more? If Egypt were 100% solar powered, it would be trivial to defeat them in a war by shooting less than a million dollars of artillery shells into their solar plants, leaving everyone in the dark in perpetuity. Japan was almost wholly dependent on the US for oil and coal before the US pulled their delivery contracts which was partly why they bombed pearl harbor, they had little to no power diversity. Nuclear and hydro will always backstop grid energy, even if solar becomes free or net negative.
6. davrosthedalek ◴[] No.44641821[source]
Additionally, the total amount of solar and wind is limited. Surely more than we need now, don't get me wrong, but how much more? Factor 2? 10? I could see a future that is extremely energy hungry, and not just because of AI.
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7. Dr4kn ◴[] No.44642216[source]
PV Panel production acts more like typical mass production and has therefore much higher cost benefits compared to every other way of producing power.

For every other way of producing energy you need separate land for PV you don't. You can put them on rooftops, over parking lots or even vertical in a field. The last one increases the crop yield. Crops get less harsh sun, lose less water and the evaporation cools down the panels, which increases their production.

Today we value costs of energy production and tomorrow we will to. Especially if it results in energy independence. You don't need to buy fuel for PV and wind. As with nuclear fuel only a few countries are probably going to manufacturing the fuel needed for fusion reactors. Producing enough of it and in a sufficient purity needs specialized facilities and they will only be profitable if they produce a lot of it.

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8. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.44643003{3}[source]
> PV Panel production acts more like typical mass production and has therefore much higher cost benefits compared to every other way of producing power

Turbines are also mass manufactured. (Albeit less than PVs.)

> You can put them on rooftops, over parking lots or even vertical in a field

The first power plant burned coal in Manhattan [1]. You can put turbines on top of buildings. We don’t because we don’t want to.

I think wind turbines are pretty. But lots of people don’t, and many wouldn’t want their rooftops to be shaded by panels, or wide open fields and natural expanses turned into something that looks more industrial. (I personally think looking down on rooftop gardens is far prettier than panels.)

Maybe there is a perfect power source out there, one which justifies a monoculture. I haven't seen it. I don't believe it's solar or wind.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Street_Station

9. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.44643685{3}[source]
> the total amount of solar and wind is limited

I'd be shocked if we max out on insolation before area we're willing to cover with solar panels and windmills.