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Nobody knows how to build with AI yet

(worksonmymachine.substack.com)
526 points Stwerner | 9 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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lordnacho ◴[] No.44616832[source]
I'm loving the new programming. I don't know where it goes either, but I like it for now.

I'm actually producing code right this moment, where I would normally just relax and do something else. Instead, I'm relaxing and coding.

It's great for a senior guy who has been in the business for a long time. Most of my edits nowadays are tedious. If I look at the code and decide I used the wrong pattern originally, I have to change a bunch of things to test my new idea. I can skim my code and see a bunch of things that would normally take me ages to fiddle. The fiddling is frustrating, because I feel like I know what the end result should be, but there's some minor BS in the way, which takes a few minutes each time. It used to take a whole stackoverflow search + think, recently it became a copilot hint, and now... Claude simply does it.

For instance, I wrote a mock stock exchange. It's the kind of thing you always want to have, but because the pressure is on to connect to the actual exchange, it is often a leftover task that nobody has done. Now, Claude has done it while I've been reading HN.

Now that I have that, I can implement a strategy against it. This is super tedious. I know how it works, but when I implement it, it takes me a lot of time that isn't really fulfilling. Stuff like making a typo, or forgetting to add the dependency. Not big brain stuff, but it takes time.

Now I know what you're all thinking. How does it not end up with spaghetti all over the place? Well. I actually do critique the changes. I actually do have discussions with Claude about what to do. The benefit here is he's a dev who knows where all the relevant code is. If I ask him whether there's a lock in a bad place, he finds it super fast. I guess you need experience, but I can smell when he's gone off track.

So for me, career-wise, it has come at the exact right time. A few years after I reached a level where the little things were getting tedious, a time when all the architectural elements had come together and been investigated manually.

What junior devs will do, I'm not so sure. They somehow have to jump to the top of the mountain, but the stairs are gone.

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dangero ◴[] No.44622452[source]
Have you had the realization that you could never go back to dealing with all the minutia again?

LLMs have changed me. I want to go outside while they are working and I am jealous of all the young engineers that won’t lose the years I did sitting in front of a screen for 12 hours a day while sometimes making no progress on connecting two black boxes.

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lelanthran ◴[] No.44622639[source]
Serious question: have you considered that dealing with all that minutiae and working through all that pain has made you capable to have the LLM write code?

Those young engineers, in 10 years, won't be able to fix what the LLM gave them,because they have not learned anything about programming.

They have all learned how to.micromanage an LLM instead.

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NitpickLawyer ◴[] No.44622772[source]
> Those young engineers, in 10 years, won't be able to fix what the LLM gave them,because they have not learned anything about programming.

I have heard a version of this plenty of times, and it was never correct. In the early 90s it was the "electronics" people that were saying "I come from an electronics background, these young'uns will look at a computer and don't know what to do if it breaks". Well, bob, we did, the whole field moved to color coded anti-stupid design, and we figured it out.

Then I heard it about IDEs. Oh, you young people are so spoiled with your IDEs and whatnot, real men code in a text editor.

Then it was about frameworks. BBbbut what if your framework breaks, what do you do then, if you don't know the underlying whatever?

... same old, same old.

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lelanthran ◴[] No.44622910[source]
Have you also heard about calculators?

Every single finance person uses a calculator. How effective do you think a person in any aspect of finance would be if they had never learned what multiplication is? Would they perform their job adequately if they don't know that `X * Y` is `X repeated Y times`?

IOW, if you gave a finance person (accountant, asset manager, whatever) a non-deterministic calculator for multiplication, would you trust the person's output if they never learned what multiplication is?

This is the situation I am asking about; we aren't talking about whether deterministically automating something that the user already knows how to do is valuable, we're talking about whether non-deterministically generating something that the user is unable to do themselves, even if given all the time in the world, is valuable.

All those examples you give are examples of deterministic automation that the user could inspect for accuracy. I'm asking about a near-future where people managing your money have never learned multiplication because "Multiplication has been abstracted away to a tool that gets it right 90% of the time"

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1. NitpickLawyer ◴[] No.44622987[source]
> Have you also heard about calculators?

Yup, my mom used to say "you need to be able to do it without a calculator, because in life you won't always have a calculator with you"... Well, guess what mom :)

But on a serious note, what I'm trying to say (perhaps poorly worded) is that this is a typical thing older generations say about younger ones. They'll be lost without x and y. They won't be able to do x because they haven't learned about y. They need to go through the tough stuff we went through, otherwise they'll be spoiled brats.

And that's always been wrong, on many levels. The younger generations always made it work. Just like we did. And just like the ones before us did.

There's this thing that parents often do, trying to prepare their children for the things they think will be relevant, from the parent's perspective. And that often backfires, because uhhh the times are achanging. Or something. You get what I'm trying to say. It's a fallacy to presuppose that you know what's coming, or that somehow an entire generation won't figure things out if they have a shortcut to x and y. They'll be fine. We're talking about millions / billions of people eventually. They'll figure it out.

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2. s_ting765 ◴[] No.44623861[source]
Junior engineers will be lost if they don't take the time to read the code generated by the LLM and really understand it. This is an objective truth. It has nothing to do with boomer takes.
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3. Xss3 ◴[] No.44623900[source]
You didn't even come close to addressing his points about non-deterministic outcomes? Aka the crux of the issue...
4. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.44628382[source]
Funny, that's what I said, as an experienced assembly hacker, when somebody first showed me a C compiler.

People who "take the time to really understand the code" will rapidly be outcompeted by people who don't. You don't like that, I don't like that, but guess what: nobody cares.

I suppose we'll get over it, eventually, just like last time.

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5. s_ting765 ◴[] No.44629159{3}[source]
LLMs are not compilers. They can't be deterministic. A better comparison is an autocorrect on steroids.

And I don't think there's anything to get over about them. They are useful but people elevate their significance too much over what they actually are.

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6. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.44629948{4}[source]
An unhealthy attachment to determinism will turn out to be a career-limiting hangup, I suspect. You already lack insight into how 100% of the code in your project works, unless you only work on trivial projects. Did you think that state of affairs was going to get better with time? As usual, TDD covers a multitude of sins.

As for "autocorrect," let us know when your "autocorrect" takes gold at the International Math Olympiad, with or without steroids.

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7. s_ting765 ◴[] No.44632337{5}[source]
Talk is cheap. Give your LLM/agent your badge and let it turn in 100% of your job.
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8. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.44635799{6}[source]
That'd be awesome. Not going to happen this week or this year, but it will.
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9. piperswe ◴[] No.44636434{7}[source]
Enjoy being unemployed then, I guess?