←back to thread

LLM Inevitabilism

(tomrenner.com)
1613 points SwoopsFromAbove | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
Show context
lsy ◴[] No.44568114[source]
I think two things can be true simultaneously:

1. LLMs are a new technology and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle with that. It's difficult to imagine a future where they don't continue to exist in some form, with all the timesaving benefits and social issues that come with them.

2. Almost three years in, companies investing in LLMs have not yet discovered a business model that justifies the massive expenditure of training and hosting them, the majority of consumer usage is at the free tier, the industry is seeing the first signs of pulling back investments, and model capabilities are plateauing at a level where most people agree that the output is trite and unpleasant to consume.

There are many technologies that have seemed inevitable and seen retreats under the lack of commensurate business return (the supersonic jetliner), and several that seemed poised to displace both old tech and labor but have settled into specific use cases (the microwave oven). Given the lack of a sufficiently profitable business model, it feels as likely as not that LLMs settle somewhere a little less remarkable, and hopefully less annoying, than today's almost universally disliked attempts to cram it everywhere.

replies(26): >>44568145 #>>44568416 #>>44568799 #>>44569151 #>>44569734 #>>44570520 #>>44570663 #>>44570711 #>>44570870 #>>44571050 #>>44571189 #>>44571513 #>>44571570 #>>44572142 #>>44572326 #>>44572360 #>>44572627 #>>44572898 #>>44573137 #>>44573370 #>>44573406 #>>44574774 #>>44575820 #>>44577486 #>>44577751 #>>44577911 #
alonsonic ◴[] No.44570711[source]
I'm confused with your second point. LLM companies are not making any money from current models? Openai generates 10b USD ARR and has 100M MAUs. Yes they are running at a loss right now but that's because they are racing to improve models. If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their massive user base you think they don't have a successful business model? People use this tools daily, this is inevitable.
replies(11): >>44570725 #>>44570756 #>>44570760 #>>44570772 #>>44570780 #>>44570853 #>>44570896 #>>44570964 #>>44571007 #>>44571541 #>>44571655 #
dbalatero ◴[] No.44570964[source]
They might generate 10b ARR, but they lose a lot more than that. Their paid users are a fraction of the free riders.

https://www.wheresyoured.at/openai-is-a-systemic-risk-to-the...

replies(3): >>44571830 #>>44572286 #>>44573506 #
Centigonal ◴[] No.44572286[source]
This echoes a lot of the rhetoric around "but how will facebook/twitter/etc make money?" back in the mid 2000s. LLMs might shake out differently from the social web, but I don't think that speculating about the flexibility of demand curves is a particularly useful exercise in an industry where the marginal cost of inference capacity is measured in microcents per token. Plus, the question at hand is "will LLMs be relevant?" and not "will LLMs be massively profitable to model providers?"
replies(12): >>44572513 #>>44572558 #>>44572586 #>>44572813 #>>44573104 #>>44573394 #>>44573558 #>>44573961 #>>44575180 #>>44575826 #>>44577467 #>>44577474 #
1. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44573558[source]
> This echoes a lot of the rhetoric around "but how will facebook/twitter/etc make money?" back in the mid 2000s.

The difference is that Facebook costs virtually nothing to run, at least on a per-user basis. (Sure, if you have a billion users, all of those individual rounding errors still add up somewhat.)

By contrast, if you're spending lots of money per user... well look at what happened to MoviePass!

The counterexample here might be Youtube; when it launched, streaming video was really expensive! It still is expensive too, but clearly Google has figured out the economics.

replies(1): >>44574284 #
2. jsnell ◴[] No.44574284[source]
You're either overestimating the cost of inference or underestimating the cost of running a service like Facebook at that scale. Meta's cost of revenue (i.e. just running the service, not R&D, not marketing, not admin, none of that) was about $30B/year in 2024. In the leaked OpenAI financials from last year, their 2024 inference costs were 1/10th of that.
replies(2): >>44575558 #>>44581093 #
3. matthewdgreen ◴[] No.44575558[source]
But their research costs are extremely high, and without a network effect that revenue is only safe until a better competitor emerges.
replies(1): >>44577903 #
4. jsnell ◴[] No.44577903{3}[source]
You're moving the goalposts, given the original complaint was not about research costs but about the marginal cost of serving additional users...

I guess you'd be surprised to find out that Meta's R&D costs are an order of magnitude higher than OpenAI's training + research costs? ($45B in 2024, vs. about $5B for OpenAI according to the leaked financials.)

5. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44581093[source]
You're right, I was underestimating the cost of running Facebook! $30B spent / ~3B users = ~$10 per user per year. I'd thought it would be closer to 10¢.

Do you know why it's so expensive? I'd thought serving html would be cheaper, particularly at Facebook's scale. Does the $30B include the cost of human content moderators? I also guess Facebook does a lot of video now, do you think that's it?

Also, even still, $10 per user has got to be an order of magnitude less than what OpenAI is spending on its free users, no?