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693 points macawfish | 26 comments | | HN request time: 1.859s | source | bottom
1. _bent ◴[] No.44544610[source]
We've had kids accessing an Internet without any working age barriers for over 30 years now.

There have been problems, be that grooming, Facebook parties and maybe addiction to TikTok.

But being able to access adult content be that sexual or violent in nature doesn't really seem to have had much negative consequences.

Sure I wouldn't want my 10 year old to see 2 girls 1 cup - but I reckon it wouldn't be the end of the world if he did.

It's good that we have content recommendations. But we shouldn't try to actually enforce them.

Again: with all the options kids have had for accessing porn online in the last couple of decades, if it was actually THAT bad, we'd be having an epidemic. Yet we don't. The kids are alright

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2. ProllyInfamous ◴[] No.44544750[source]
Content restrictions should just be an option with the ISP: to make the entire modem/phone disable adult content and/or require age verification. This, I would disable (presuming `on` by default).

>2 girls 1 cup

I still remember showing that to curious ladies in grad school (who'd heard about it); some of my favorite reaction footage.

>10 years old

My generation's equivalent was lemonparty.com

=>O<=

3. const_cast ◴[] No.44545048[source]
It doesn't - rather, it attacks the preposition at it's source. Pornography is bad, supposedly, but is it actually? It seems to me we all moved on without actually answering that question.

We know it's bad for moral reasons, but moral reasons are stupid and I don't trust them. But is it actually bad - like in the real world, with tangible effects, not made-up ones? I don't know, and it looks like you don't know, and OP doesn't know, and the people who are pushing this age verification don't know either.

Sure, two girls one cup is disgusting. It's vile. It's immoral. But is it harmful? That's a different question.

That's a huge problem. You see, we're attempting to solve a problem which we haven't proved even exists.

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4. tolerance ◴[] No.44545183{3}[source]
I have a feeling that this is going to turn into one of those exchanges where we capoeira around theory and definitions and what "real" is and what "real" isn't in a way I have to think that either you've lived a sheltered life, or are in denial or have some kind of resentment toward the disgusting, vile and immoral things that you've witnessed that were "harmful" to you (I'm not a therapist).

Moral reasons are stupid and you don't trust them.

Go find a ten-year-old and show them the video yourself. Then see if they feel up to letting you stick around them long enough for you to figure out whether there were any real-world, tangible effects.

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5. const_cast ◴[] No.44545237{4}[source]
What I mean by "real" is real-world, tangible.

If I drive a car without a seatbelt, that has real-world effects. I can get ejected and die, as well as hurting other people.

But pornography doesn't split my skull. It doesn't crush my fingers. It doesn't make me poorer. It doesn't make me sicker. It doesn't hurt me physically, or financially, or even socially.

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6. BriggyDwiggs42 ◴[] No.44545280[source]
I saw that when I was little and it was just gross; I’m fine lol. My generation was the one watching cartel executions at that same time and that’s probably worse.
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7. tolerance ◴[] No.44545375{5}[source]
I know, or at least I figured that's what you meant.

I'm not a proponent of the discipline per say, and maybe because of this, my impression that the entire field of psychology is meant to partially address the real-word, tangible effects of things that do not cause apparent physical harm is naive.

If I'm accustomed to women getting indiscriminately reamed and pinned and prodded at my own discretion—even casually—I am at a detriment.

I'm going to leave out a more accessible or agreeable example because I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you can come up one on your own.

I don't mean to be condescending, but I want to assume that you're arguing in good faith.

Have you, or any one who you know, seen something disgusting, vile or immoral that didn't cause physical harm but had a negative consequence on how you feel about yourself or the world around you?

Why are we quick to champion the value of the "good" things that don't offer any material benefit (i.e., physically, financially, socially) but criticizing the "bad" requires graphs and groups and variables and peer reviews?

I know, and I figure that you know too. "Good" and "bad" exist in quotations marks and only count among the people who don't need them to use them with each other.

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8. tolerance ◴[] No.44545402{3}[source]
Who is your generation and how do you think they turned out.

No, save it (don't save it, this is rhetorical), because apparently every generation is screwed up in their own way that begets the ills of the next.

And if we happen to be cohorts (which I suspect we may be), then I think we made out as worse as any.

And is it wrong to assume that there isn't any difference between either kinds of footage? That one goads the other in either direction?

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9. const_cast ◴[] No.44545572{6}[source]
> Why are we quick to champion the value of the "good" things that don't offer any material benefit (i.e., physically, financially, socially) but criticizing the "bad" requires graphs and groups and variables and peer reviews?

To answer this, it's because of how modern societies view rights. Namely, you can do whatever you want, until we can prove it's to a detriment to other people. Before doing something, we need not prove it is good.

On an individual level, it is a very good idea to have some guarantee something is good before we do it. But on a societal level, we don't do this, and for good reason. Before we censor or restrict, we must assure we have good reasons for doing so.

> If I'm accustomed to women getting indiscriminately reamed and pinned and prodded at my own discretion—even casually—I am at a detriment.

I might agree, but sexuality and sex is very complex.

I can argue that it's not that simple, and sex exists beyond the bounds of what you do - it's part of who you are, and not much in your control.

For example, I am a homosexual, I'm gay. Naturally my sex involves anal intercourse with other men. To many, this is disgusting. Gross, unsanitary, distasteful.

My life would certainly be easier if I did not have this affliction, but simultaneously I cannot control it. I've tried, as has every gay man or boy at some point in their lives. And, I do not know what has caused it. If I never viewed pornography, ever, I am 100% confident I would still be gay.

I do not know how it works for heterosexuals, but I imagine, to some degree, their sexual proclivities are, too, not under their control. I don't think removing pornography would remove those sexual proclivities.

10. TheOtherHobbes ◴[] No.44545607{3}[source]
Getting shot at school is far worse than seeing a vagina, but according to the people doing the censoring a movie featuring a vagina is a bigger problem than a violent random death.

As moral positions go, it's actually quite eccentric.

11. BriggyDwiggs42 ◴[] No.44545627{4}[source]
Anything you experience may push you in a direction with some magnitude, but we tend to overestimate the magnitude and mispredict the direction because we’re worried about the wellbeing of kids. Think “violent video games create school schootings.” In reality, kids have to deal with a lot of real things in life that are hard, an abusive parent or bullies at school, but those realities are harder to deal with so we distract ourselves worrying about violent video games. At the end of the day, it’s a recording on a screen, which is very different from a traumatic reality because you can just turn it off.
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12. tolerance ◴[] No.44545755{5}[source]
I'll offer the following speculation:

Virtual reality simulates physical reality.

In some cases, like violent video games, they assuage traumas. Whether it's a recording on a screen or not, can our brains tell the difference?

Something is going on, spooky and subtle in the mind that makes whatever is on the screen meaningful to us.

I don't want to get us trapped in this false interpretation that in the year 2025 there is a difference between how human beings are affected in the physical and digital world. To be frank, it's stupid to think like this, meaning that it's an insult to the intelligence of the person who thinks this way and it needs to be called out as such in order to encourage them to think critically about the matter.

If this whole interaction is just some woopdy doo, willy nilly, be that as it may sort of engagement with media, what compels us then to entertain the things that we don't (or don't want to) attribute to the hard things in life?

I'm going to assume your gender and your age to some degree here:

Middle-aged men have a tendency to Wednesday Night Sitcom Dad their way out of confronting things that bring their own vulnerabilities into question and collectively make them accountable for figuring out what to do about these things, especially if it comes at the cost of comfort that they're trying to preserve that are the accessories to their vulnerabilities.

What we're discussing isn't as simple as the "close your eyes to avoid cyberbullying" quips of yore: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tyler-the-creators-cyber-bull... (in which I make a more blatant attempt at guessing which generation you belong to and consequently expose my own).

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13. BriggyDwiggs42 ◴[] No.44545852{6}[source]
Close: male but not middle aged

Our brains can’t tell the difference, but that’s not what I said. What I said is that it can be turned off. Social media cyberbullying comes along with entanglements that keep you on the site. For a shock video, I think the suburban dad has a point. To be clear, if someone came up to me and said they had really struggled with what they’d seen in a shock video as a kid and that it was really messing with them, I wouldn’t dismiss that or make fun of them or something. It’s just that the opposite has been my experience and the experience of those who I’m close to.

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14. mixmastamyk ◴[] No.44545869{3}[source]
Many of these things can’t be “unseen,” and I wish I hadn’t.
15. educasean ◴[] No.44545896[source]
Let's blind all kids. Anyone who is opposed must believe that a non-zero chance of a child seeing two women have sex and eat turds is normal and healthy.
replies(1): >>44546056 #
16. DonHopkins ◴[] No.44546017[source]
I bet they would have found cakefarts.com hilarious! At least it delivered what the url promised, unlike expertsexchange.com, penisland.com, and therapistfinder.com.
17. tolerance ◴[] No.44546035{7}[source]
My friend (we're friends now, and that makes you middle-aged by association):

I hope it didn't seem like I was advancing premises that you never proposed outright. I was derived that premise on my own. I take full ownership of the words that you put in my mouth by the virtue of what you did say being thought-provoking.

And I ask you, if our brains can't tell the difference then what does turning it off actually achieve? If your self esteem or your sheer will to live is broken offline, going online does not solve this problem on its own. I'm speaking unconditionally and not in a way that can be made subject to circumstance.

If you feel ugly, or feel like dying, or feel anything, in a way that resonates with you at the very core of your being (and I know, I know, who's to say a supernatural "core of being" exists right?) then it's a wrap for you. It's going to take about as much effort to redeem yourself as it would if you were physically harmed in the street.

At the end, I don't think that what I'm saying is spectacular for anyone who has basic qualities of self-awareness and empathy (and I'm not saying that you're not one of them) or psychology (of which I am no savant and would even follow your lead to some extent if you have any trails to offer).

The point of contention is a matter of belief—ideologically and morally—and the depths that we're willing to go to scrutinize what gives us pleasure and why. In a way I think that this runs counterintuitive to the notions of "civil liberty" that pervade modern thought and any attempt to distinguish right from wrong on a scale greater than the individual makes the powder-wigged patriot in us quiver in our britches.

So there's that. I'm tapped.

18. tolerance ◴[] No.44546056{3}[source]
If it wasn't for your fine taste in ketchup I wouldn't have any qualms about writing you off as an imbecile.

I want to believe that your lack of discernment in one area betrays what suggests sound judgment in another. Unless the latter holds true only on occasions that satisfy your gullet.

19. jofla_net ◴[] No.44546884[source]
Its really sad to see this getting attacked, now, after all that's transpired, after so many years. You'd think if it was that dire, again maybe 10 years in there would have been more action. But again its not genuine, so its really about the ulterior motives. Not even to mention the 1st amendment issues, which again don't just magically dissapear when a bunch of people stick to party lines.

Alas, we are in an age of hyper over-regulation though and this is just another example. I could come up with countless others in wildly different fields which have one astonishing commonality. That business has been running fine for ages and all of a sudden, we need to regulate.

20. mdavid626 ◴[] No.44549444[source]
So, you're saying that children/adults nowadays are not negatively affected by early sexual exposure?

These are some of the negative effects, what early sexual exposure can cause:

- unrealistic or harmful beliefs about sex, intimacy, and gender roles

- sex disconnected from intimacy, respect, consent

- anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, body image issues

- broken families (one parent missing), divorce

- problems with emotional regulation, impulse control

- attention control problems, aggression, withdrawal

I say, all of these are on the rise and are a big problem.

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21. Aachen ◴[] No.44550614[source]
Wait until you hear what issues the ubiquitous dihydrogen monoxide can cause! https://web.archive.org/web/19961031232918/http://media.circ...

These points would greatly benefit from being put into perspective

You can't seriously think a significant percentage of people are emotionally unstable because they looked up porn of their own will at an age of their own choosing, even if I trust that it can be listed as a contributing factor for some infinitesimal fraction of those with that issue

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22. mdavid626 ◴[] No.44550689{3}[source]
You can’t be serious thinking it has NO bad effect on people, especially children.

Would you let your own children watch porn?

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23. ◴[] No.44551607{4}[source]
24. kjkjadksj ◴[] No.44551902{4}[source]
Yes!
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25. mdavid626 ◴[] No.44552307{5}[source]
Without restrictions, any age?
26. Aachen ◴[] No.44555748{4}[source]
I assume I would if I had them. Similar to keeping offline and online bullying in check (no matter if they're the victim or perpetrator), until a certain point I guess I'd keep an eye on what they're up to (less and less as they age, assuming it goes well). If I see sites super unsuitable to their development stage (e.g. afaik girls mature slightly earlier so I may stop monitoring their media consumption sooner, I'd do my research if I were a parent) then sure we can have an uncomfortable talk and see what action I need to take. But if they're a horny 13-year-old, heck no I'm not looking into their pornhub pageloads, they have their privacy too. I'd be super weirded out if my parents had done that until I was 14 or whatever the legal consent age is where you are! Would/do you do that to your kids?!

Anyway, I guess the more relevant question is whether I think it has no effect whatsoever. Nah, of course it does, potentially some good and also potentially some bad effects. I just thought many of the points on your list had a negligible risk level (where risk=chance*impact), since it's e.g. not like most people who've grown up with the internet freely now are aggressives without impulse control

I'm not an expert on the topic and I'm happy to look at studies that update my worldview. Yet it's evidently not the case that anyone born between ~1990 and ~2000 (widespread internet and thus porn but not yet social media) has the issues you've mentioned. Maybe elevated levels, and maybe some research can disentangle the various environmental effects to point to porn as a partial culprit, but clearly it's not a majority of the population and, among those who are affected, it seems unlikely that porn is a typical significant contributor