←back to thread

Apple vs the Law

(formularsumo.co.uk)
377 points tempodox | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.264s | source
Show context
grishka ◴[] No.44529279[source]
> "...unfortunately, it's impossible to do all the complex engineering to comply with the Commission's current interpretation of the DMA..."

There's nothing complex and impossible about removing some "if" statements responsible for code signature enforcement.

replies(9): >>44529310 #>>44529322 #>>44529363 #>>44529431 #>>44529446 #>>44529695 #>>44530078 #>>44531016 #>>44531269 #
interpol_p ◴[] No.44529363[source]
It’s extremely complex. I’m not debating whether they should comply - they should. But it’s gonna cost them years of engineering effort, and maintenance far into the future. See, for example, BrowserEngineKit

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/browserenginekit

They needed to engineer, maintain, document and support a whole class of APIs so that third parties can create their own competitive browser engines (that offer JIT, etc) while still maintaining iOS sandbox security. There are going to be hundreds of frameworks, thousands of APIs, that will need to come to ensure compliance with the DMA

replies(2): >>44529396 #>>44529401 #
idle_zealot ◴[] No.44529396[source]
Or, they could just let their pocket computers run the software users download and install, like every single other computer ever made and sold, rather than special-case engineer padded cells for every use-case, application class, or bit of interoperability.
replies(3): >>44530059 #>>44530285 #>>44533417 #
itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44530285[source]
An iPhone isn’t a pocket computer. It needs to be really secure because someone gaining full access to it through a badly written browser would cost you your life savings if not your life for some.
replies(2): >>44530328 #>>44537911 #
grishka ◴[] No.44530328[source]
How and why is that somehow fundamentally different from someone gaining complete access to your computer, which allows you to run anything freely? Both are your personal devices that store your sensitive personal information.
replies(1): >>44530550 #
itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44530550[source]
That’s a very good and valid question but did they sell the device with the premise that anyone can run any app they want or only the apps Apple approved can run?

We believe in the same thing, our devices should be free like speech. But the whole thing turned into a show because some rich software companies don’t want to pay Apple 30% while they have no problem with other platforms like gaming consoles.

replies(2): >>44530633 #>>44532952 #
grishka ◴[] No.44530633[source]
Apple does market the iPhone as a general-purpose communication and computing device. Not an appliance like a game console. Most iPhone users don't know what making an app is like, how asinine the app store review process is, and what kinds of bonkers rules developers have to follow.

Apple initially did that to protect the ecosystem from malware and make sure all apps meet their quality standards. Also to make distribution easy for indie developers. All commendable goals. But as the iOS market share grew, this turned into a very convenient revenue source that they can't let go now.

replies(1): >>44535096 #
itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44535096[source]
The Original iPhone didn’t have any apps and Apple later created their own ecosystem with an end user agreement which supersedes the ads.

The digital market should be regulated for sure but what’s happening is a bunch of companies who are in the digital market (and not regulated themselves) exploiting the public sentiment and the regulatory processes.

Spotify and others fail to mention that they were able to access billions of Apple customers without paying a single dime to Apple initially which is unheard of in business relationships.

replies(2): >>44535500 #>>44535599 #
grishka ◴[] No.44535500[source]
I keep seeing that argument made but it doesn't make any sense.

Yes, Apple may deserve a cut when a user was acquired thanks to the app store alone. Like in that case when you're an indie developer and the app store putting your app listing in front of potential new users is genuinely helpful. However, to many developers, and especially large ones like Spotify that do their own marketing, the app store is a hindrance. It's an obstacle they need to clear. It provides no value to them.

Spotify is able to "access billions of Apple customers" because Spotify spends millions on ads and because statistically some people who would like to use Spotify on their phone happen to have an iPhone. Apple has no part in this at all. Simple as that.

replies(1): >>44539083 #
itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44539083[source]
I would like to explain it, if you're genuinely interested.

Apple designs and manufactures incredible hardware and software. The ecosystem they created is beautiful, secure, and intuitive to use. When it was first announced, many people started using it even before they allowed apps on it. Apple later launched the App Store and allowed 3rd party developers access to their platform in exchange for a percentage of the sale price.

And this is where most people trip, it's their platform, not an open ecosystem. Apple is granting Spotify access to billions of Apple's users in exchange for a cut of the sale price. It doesn't matter if one person bought a subscription or one million, the platform still belongs to Apple. And in exchange billions of Apple customers are likely to purchase a subscription from Spotify.

If a company builds a 50,000 people capacity football stadium, and I open a concession stand in there in exchange for a percentage of the sales, can I say I want to sell to all these people without paying my contractual obligations? Spotify is free to sell their subscriptions and install their applications wherever they like but that's not the contractual agreement they had with Apple.

Private ownership is essential to our economy, Apple created this platform and their own it. Forcibly taking it from them would give all the wrong signals to everyone else about what could happen to them next. Who knows, maybe someone says you voted for the wrong party.

---

Digital marketplace, not just Apple or gatekeepers or whatever, must be regulated from the first principles. A couple of rich software companies cozying up to regulators and trying to force changes that will increase only their profit margins is not the way to do it in my humble opinion.

replies(1): >>44539255 #
stale2002 ◴[] No.44539255[source]
> . Apple is granting Spotify access

No. Those users control themselves. They are not Apples users. They own their own device and they are free to do whatever they want with the hardware that they own.

> the platform still belongs to Apple

No actually. The device is owned by the user.

> billions of Apple customers

They aren't Apples. They own their own device.

> e but that's not the contractual agreement they had with Apple.

Or instead of that, they can completely ignore apple's copntract, and force Apple by law to allow them access to this market. If apple doesn't like it, then they can leave the EU entirely, or accept 10s of billions of dollars in fines.

> Forcibly taking it

Its not Apples. The device belongs to the user.

> must be regulated from the first principles.

Ok, and what about the first principle of "A user owns there own device and should be free to pay Apple exactly 0 dollars for the ability to install spotify on the device that they own".

replies(2): >>44539546 #>>44539650 #
itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44539650[source]
You must be thinking this is all wrong. I completely understand and agree with your sentiment, but we're talking about what the contract says.

I'm not allowed to install any software I want on my car's computer, the platform belongs to them. They don't provide the tools, libraries, the know-how, or even sue the people who share it online. And similarly, according to Apple's EULA the devices cannot run any app that is not approved by Apple and they can even revoke their approval or even disable the phone.

Those were the license conditions the hardware sold under, which sounds very user hostile. Regardless, nobody has to buy their products, they chose to buy it because the benefits it provided surpassed the limitations. When Spotify created their developer account they knew what the limitations were as well. This isn't an open platform. One can sue Toyota to get access to install Spotify to Corollas and get another 500 million customers, but that also wouldn't work either.

The only thing that can stop Apple is people not buying their products and developers not making apps therefore reducing the value of their ecosystem. Only then they will by themselves would open the ecosystem, which they should've done 5 years ago.

Regarding the EU forcibly taking stuff over. Well, if push comes to shove, do you think the US would allow a 3 trillion dollar American company to be bullied, go after European companies or would they react in a really unpredictable way?

Apple devices are successful because they provide a great value. They didn't just sell the hardware like Nokia did, they kept delivering software updates and spend billions of dollars sustaining the ecosystem. The limitations were put to improve user experience, for example they didn't allow apps to run continuously in the background so that users can have all day battery life. The high level of control they have allowed them to provide greater value than other ecosystems which brought more users and so on. This requires continuous work to keep it running and they're entitled to be paid for their work.

And again, nobody has to buy their products, you can buy other products and install whatever software you want on those, and do whatever you want there. Android has a bigger marketshare and some people still use Nokia or Blackberry.

---

A digital marketplace consists of everyone that participates in the digital economy not just Apple. All the websites, service providers, apps, hardware manufacturers, users, companies, and their interactions.

replies(1): >>44540114 #
1. grishka ◴[] No.44540114[source]
You keep comparing appliances to general-purpose devices. You also act like the "accept to continue" legalese actually matters to anyone but the legal department that wrote it. Please stop.

When someone buys a car, they usually don't expect to run third-party software on it. They use it to get to places. They expect to use the built-in entertainment system to listen to music and maybe use CarPlay or Android Auto, and that's it.

When someone buys a smartphone, they expect to be able to install apps on it. That's the smartphone thing, that's what sets it apart from dumbphones. Third-party apps are what sells smartphones.

> Apple devices are successful because they provide a great value.

Uh sorry??? It may have been true 10 years ago, but an iPhone costs around $1000 now. That's outrageously expensive for what it is. You can say that about midrange Android phones, but definitely not about iPhones. You pay this much and still don't get to actually own the damn thing.

> for example they didn't allow apps to run continuously in the background so that users can have all day battery life

How is that related to the app store? Android does that as well. An app only gets to run in the background if it starts a "foreground service" which shows a persistent notification.

Sandboxing apps and enforcing their behavior does not require limiting what the user can do with their own device.

> This requires continuous work to keep it running

It absolutely does not. If iOS stopped getting updated 5 years ago, no one would've noticed. It's been a finished, feature-complete product for a long time.