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724 points simonw | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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0points ◴[] No.44529722[source]
> Israel ranks high on democracy indicies

Those rankings must be rigged.

Nethanyahu should be locked up in jail now for the corruption charges he was facing before the Hamas attack.

He literally stopped elections in Israel since then and there's been protests against his government daily for some years now.

And now, even taco tries to have the corruption charges dropped for Nethanyahu, then you must know he's guilty.

https://nypost.com/2025/06/29/world-news/israeli-court-postp...

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-corrupti...

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Asafp ◴[] No.44529811[source]
Almost none of what you wrote above is true, no idea how is this a top comment. Israel is a democracy. Netanyahu's trail is still ongoing, the war did not stop the trails and until he is proven guilty (and if) he should not go to jail. He did not stop any elections, Israel have elections every 4 years, it still did not pass 4 years since last elections. Israel is not perfect, but it is a democracy. Source: Lives in Israel.
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DiogenesKynikos ◴[] No.44530008[source]
Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. There are 5 million Palestinians living under permanent Israeli rule who have no rights at all. No citizenship. No civil rights. Not even the most basic human rights. They can be imprisoned indefinitely without charges. They can be shot, and nothing will happen. This has been the situation for nearly 60 years now. No other country like this would be called a democracy.
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thyristan ◴[] No.44530079[source]
Afaik those 5 million Palestinians are not Israeli citizens because they don't want to be, and rather would have their refugee and Palestinian citizen status. There are also Palestinians who have chosen to be Israeli citizens, with the usual democratic rights and representation, with their own people in the Knesset, etc.

And shooting enemies in a war is unfortunately not something you would investigate, it isn't even murder, it is just a consequence of war under the articles of war. In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Now you may (sometimes rightfully) claim that those investigations and punishments are too few, one-sided and not done by a neutral party. But those do happen, which by far isn't "nothing".

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7sigma ◴[] No.44530290{3}[source]
Palestinian citizens in Israel do not have the same rights as the Israeli Jew, with more than 50 laws discrimination against them. They also face systemic discrimination and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid. Initially Palestinians within the Green lines were also under military occupation and only after 80% of the other Palestinians were either massacred or ethnically cleansed, so it was basically a forced acceptance. Israeli policy has always been to have a an ethnic supremacy for Jews, so the representation in the Knesset is tokenistic at best. If Israel decides to expel Palestinians in Israel, there's nothing they can do, its the tyranny of the majority.

Palestinians in the West Bank do not have the option of becoming Israeli citizens, except under rare circumstances.

Its laughable that when you say that there are investigations. The number of incidents of journalists, medics, hospital workers being murdered and even children being shot in the head with sniper bullets is shockingly high.

One case is the murder of Hind Rajab where more 300 bullets were shot at the car she was into. Despite managing to call for an ambulance, Israel shelled it killing all the ambulance crew and 6 year old Hind Rajab.

Another example is the 15 ambulance crew murdered by Israel forces and then buried.

Even before the genocide, the murder of the Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was proved to have been done by Israel, after they repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Another case was this one, where a soldier emptied his magazine in a 13 year old and was judged not guilty (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2)

The examples and many others are many and have been documented by the ICC and other organisations. Saying that it's not nothing is a distinction without a difference

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reliabilityguy ◴[] No.44530587{4}[source]
> and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid.

Marriage laws have nothing to do with apartheid, a system that uses race to differentiate peoples.

There are plenty of countries where marriage is done on religion basis and there is no civil marriage at all. What does it have to do with Palestinians?

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7sigma ◴[] No.44531946{5}[source]
Because it is imposed by a a colonial population on the native Palestinians in order to maintain a jewish majority in the ethnostate.
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reliabilityguy ◴[] No.44531974{6}[source]
> Because it is imposed by a a colonial population on the native Palestinians in order to maintain an ethnic majority.

So, the jews who fled from pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe to Ottoman Palestine in 1900s are colonizers? I thought that people whole flee violence are refugees. Why do you have a different standard for them?

Jews that moved to Ottoman Palestine, btw, were buying land from locals. Are you saying that buying land is an act of colonialism if jews are doing that?

Why are you twisting the facts to fit your narrative?

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7sigma ◴[] No.44533288{7}[source]
> So, the jews who fled from pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe to Ottoman Palestine in 1900s are colonizers? I thought that people whole flee violence are refugees. Why do you have a different standard for them?

Whether you are a refugee or not, the act of displacing the native population (and Jews from eastern Europe and Russia are not native to Palestine), and maintaining that displacement and subsequent subjugation is colonialism. In fact, organisations like the Jewish Colonisation Fund existed for the purpose of facilitating immigration to Palestine.

> Jews that moved to Ottoman Palestine, btw, were buying land from locals. Are you saying that buying land is an act of colonialism if jews are doing that?

> Why are you twisting the facts to fit your narrative?

If this is how you characterise the birth of Israel, then you are sorely misinformed. Israel was created through a terrorist campaign of ethnic cleansing starting in early 1948 with the forced depopulation hundreds of thousands of native Palestinians from their villages accompanied by massacres like Deir Yassin, i.e. the Nakba. This was the culmination of the Zionist rhetoric of "transfer" of Palestinians from their land and in effect has continued to this day.

Zionism is a replication of white European colonialism, but performed by Jewish European people, and partly encouraged by European powers primarily for geopolitical and also partly religious purposes (see Christian Zionism). It uses the dubious Jewish ancestral claim to the land as well as past oppression to create a Jewish ethno state and oppress a people who is probably more related in ancestry to the original Jewish people than most Jews (except those that had been there for generations).

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1. reliabilityguy ◴[] No.44535032{8}[source]
> Whether you are a refugee or not, the act of displacing the native population (and Jews from eastern Europe and Russia are not native to Palestine), and maintaining that displacement and subsequent subjugation is colonialism.

But they did not displace the population. They arrived to the area in the beginning of 1900s. The war of 1948 was much later.

> In fact, organisations like the Jewish Colonisation Fund existed for the purpose of facilitating immigration to Palestine.

The same way numerous NGOs help migrants today to move and settle in the EU. I am willing to bet $100 you do not see them as colonizers, right?

> If this is how you characterise the birth of Israel, then you are sorely misinformed. Israel was created through a terrorist campaign of ethnic cleansing starting in early 1948 with the forced depopulation hundreds of thousands of native Palestinians from their villages accompanied by massacres like Deir Yassin, i.e. the Nakba. This was the culmination of the Zionist rhetoric of "transfer" of Palestinians from their land and in effect has continued to this day.

You are twisting facts and lying again. The purchase of lands happened way before the British mandate even. Are you saying it never happened?

> Zionism is a replication of white European colonialism, but performed by Jewish European people, and partly encouraged by European powers primarily for geopolitical and also partly religious purposes (see Christian Zionism). It uses the dubious Jewish ancestral claim to the land as well as past oppression to create a Jewish ethno state and oppress a people who is probably more related in ancestry to the original Jewish people than most Jews (except those that had been there for generations).

How can jews be white when they were never considered the same class citizens in Europe at the time? LOL

Man, why are you like that? Why do you ignore any historical evidence that does not fit your narrative? Why do you apply different standards to jews and not jews in the same situations?

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2. 7sigma ◴[] No.44535439[source]
> But they did not displace the population. They arrived to the area in the beginning of 1900s. The war of 1948 was much later.

Yes they did, this was the Nakba, as documented by Israeli historians like Illan Pappe and Bennhy Morris

The purchase of the land up to 1948 resulted in only 6% of palestine being occupied and upon Palestinians clamouring for their own state, it was decided to take territory by force.

White supremacy is not really about being white or not. Italians and southern europeans were not considered white in the early 20th century US. Its about who is considered the top of a hierarchy of a racial hierarchy or not.

> Man, why are you like that? Why do you ignore any historical evidence that does not fit your narrative? Why do you apply different standards to jews and not jews in the same situations?

You are talking to a Jewish former zionist, with grandparents who survived the holocaust, who has rejected the myths of Zionism. The narrative is based on historical evidence. I'm applying the same standards to Jews as I would do to Nazis.

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3. reliabilityguy ◴[] No.44556213[source]
> Yes they did, this was the Nakba

Gotcha. So, refugees are colonizers then, right?

> The purchase of the land up to 1948 resulted in only 6% of palestine being occupied

Palestinians owned about 8%. The rest was owned by the Ottomans and later by the British mandate.

> White supremacy is not really about being white or not. Italians and southern europeans were not considered white in the early 20th century US. Its about who is considered the top of a hierarchy of a racial hierarchy or not.

You are contradicting yourself. White supremacy is either about race (ie white) or not. If it’s not about race at all, then how can it determine racial hierarchy???

> You are talking to a Jewish former zionist, with grandparents who survived the holocaust, who has rejected the myths of Zionism.

I don’t care who you are. I argue about your claims, and not ethnic or cultural or ancestral background. You can be the Moses himself and still be wrong.

> The narrative is based on historical evidence.

You are not.

> I'm applying the same standards to Jews as I would do to Nazis.

What does it even mean? Are you saying Jews are nazis?