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724 points simonw | 37 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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pu_pe ◴[] No.44528987[source]
It's telling that they don't just tell the model what to think, they have to make it go fetch the latest opinion because there is no intellectual consistency in their politics. You see that all the time on X too, perhaps that's how they program their bots.
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1. Davidzheng ◴[] No.44529017[source]
very few people have intellectual consistency in their politics
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2. bojan ◴[] No.44529103[source]
In the Netherlands we have this phenomenon that around 20% of voters keep voting for the new "Messiah", a right-wing populist politician that will this time fix everything.

When the party inevitably explodes due to internal bickering and/or simply failing to deliver their impossible promises, a new Messiah pops up, propped by the national media, and the cycle restarts.

That being said, the other 80% is somewhat consistent in their patterns.

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3. ◴[] No.44529113[source]
4. huijzer ◴[] No.44529127[source]
> That being said, the other 80% is somewhat consistent in their patterns.

Yes very consistent in promising one thing and then doing another.

5. pjc50 ◴[] No.44529159[source]
In the UK it's the other way round: the media have chosen Farage as the anointed right-wing leader of a cult of personality. Every few years his "party" implodes and is replaced by a new one, but his position is fixed.
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6. guappa ◴[] No.44529288[source]
Is being a tax haven and doing propaganda to tell your citizens how virtuous you are economically (what NL has been doing for several decades) not right wing populism?
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7. zigman1 ◴[] No.44529293[source]
This is almost 40% in Slovenia, but for a moderate without a clear program.

Every second election cycle Messiah like that becomes the prime minister.

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8. KaiserPro ◴[] No.44529847{3}[source]
The problem is more nuanced than that. but not far off.

The issue is that farage and boris have personality, and understand how the media works. Nobody else apart from blair does(possibly the ham toucher too.)

The Farage style parties fail because they are built around the cult of the leader, rather than the joint purpose of changing something. This is part of the reason why I'm not that hopeful about Starmer, as I'm not acutally sure what he stands for, so how are his ministers going to implement a policy based on bland soup?

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9. rsynnott ◴[] No.44529865{3}[source]
In Ireland, every four years the electorate chooses which of the two large moderate parties without clear platform it would prefer (they’re quite close to being the same thing, but dislike each other for historical and aesthetic reasons), sometimes adding a small center-left party for variety. This has been going on for decades. We currently have a ruling coalition of _both_ of them.
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10. rahkiin ◴[] No.44529968{3}[source]
We haven’t had a left-wing parlement for some decades now
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11. pjc50 ◴[] No.44530050{4}[source]
Starmer stands for press appeasement. Hence all the random benefits bashing and anti-trans policy. If you try to change anything for the better in the UK without providing "red meat" to the press they will destroy you.
12. piltdownman ◴[] No.44530089{4}[source]
In the post Alastair Campbell era of contemporary UK Politics, it often boils down to 'Don't be George Galloway' and allowing your opponents enough rope to hang themselves.
13. piltdownman ◴[] No.44530175{4}[source]
We had a number of somewhat stilted rainbow coalitions due to our electoral system based on proportional representation with a single transferrable vote - in fact its where most of the significant policy change on e.g. Education and the Environment came from since the IMF bailout via Labour and the Greens. Previously you had the PDs as well in the McDowell era.

The problem is that the election before last was a protest vote to keep the incumbents out at the expense of actual Governance - with thoroughly unsuitable Sinn Fein candidates elected as protest votes for 1st preferences, and by transfers in marginal rural constituencies thereafter.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/09/irish-voters-h...

Note that Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA and would be almost unheard of to hold any sort of meaningful majority in the Republic - but have garnered young peoples support in recent years based on fiscal fantasies of free housing and taxing high-earners even more.

This protest vote was aimed almost entirely at (rightly) destroying the influence of the Labour Party and the Greens due to successive unpopular taxes and DIE initiatives seen as self-aggrandizing and out of touch with their voting base. It saw first-timers, students, and even people on Holiday during the election get elected for Sinn Fein.

Fast-forward to today, and it quickly became evident what a disaster this was. Taking away those seats from Sinn Fein meant redistributing them elsewhere - and given the choices are basically AntiAusterityAlliance/PeopleBeforeProfit on the far-left, and a number of wildly racist and ethnonationalists like the NationalParty on the far-right, the electorate voted in force to bring in both 'moderate' incumbents on a damage-limitation basis.

https://www.politico.eu/article/irelands-elections-european-...

14. guappa ◴[] No.44530217{4}[source]
My point being that the 20% right wingers aren't really a 20% minority… they're more like the majority.
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15. bojan ◴[] No.44530456{5}[source]
Next to the Messiah parties, there are also other established (far-)right wing parties that have a reasonably steady electorate. The Netherlands indeed didn't have a left majority for some decades now.
16. A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 ◴[] No.44530765[source]
That or, more likely, we don't have a complete understanding of the individual's politics. I am saying this, because what I often see is espoused values as opposed to practiced ones. That tends to translate to 'what currently benefits me'. It is annoying to see that pattern repeat so consistently.
17. noobermin ◴[] No.44530909[source]
Many people are quite inconsistent yes but musk and trump are clear outliers. Well, their axiom if any is self-interest, I guess.
18. ReaperCub ◴[] No.44530928{4}[source]
> This is part of the reason why I'm not that hopeful about Starmer, as I'm not actually sure what he stands for, so how are his ministers going to implement a policy based on bland soup?

Tony Blair said at the 1996 Labour Part Conference:

> Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile

Starmer is a poor copy of Blair. None of them stand for anything. They say things that pleases enough people so they get elected, then they attempt to enact what they really want to do.

> The Farage style parties fail because they are built around the cult of the leader, rather than the joint purpose of changing something.

There is certainly that. However there are interviews with former Reform / UKIP members that held important positions in both parties. Some of said that Nigel Farage sabotages the party just when they are getting to the point where they could actually be a threat. Which leads some people to think that Nigel Farage is more of a pressure valve. I've not seen any proof of it presented, but it is plausible.

Saying that though, most of the candidates for other parties (not Labour / Conservative) are essentially the people that probably would have no cut it as a candidate in Conservative or Labour parties.

19. MSFT_Edging ◴[] No.44531002[source]
Fascism is notoriously an intellectually and philosophically inconsistent world view who's primary purpose is to validate racism and violence.

There's no world where the fascist checks sources before making a claim.

Just like ole Elon, who has regularly been proven wrong by Grok, to the point where they need to check what he thinks first before checking for sources.

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20. v5v3 ◴[] No.44531324{3}[source]
His party didn't implode, and he didn't have one every few years.

He succeeded with UKIP as the goal was Brexit. He then left that single issue party, as it had served it's purpose and now recently started a second one seeing an opportunity.

21. chillingeffect ◴[] No.44531617{3}[source]
You subbed in "ends" for "purpose to is to validate." They're different. Without the seduction of violence and racism, fascism is a much less convincing argument.

Facism is a paranoid carnival that feeds on fear, scapegoating, and blood. That’s the historical record.

Fascism needs violence and racism as tools and moral glue to hold its contradictions together. It’s the myth-making and the permission slip for brutality that gives fascism its visceral pull, not some utopian goal of pure violence, but a promise of restored glory, cleansed nation, purified identity, and the righteous right to crush the other.

Fascism doesn’t chase violence like a dog after a stick. Im fact, it needs violence like a drunk needs a barstool. Strip out the promise of righteous fists and pure-blood fantasies, and the whole racket folds like a bad poker hand. Without the thrill of smashing skulls and blaming ‘the other guy,’ fascism’s just empty uniforms and a lousy flag collection.

Look at Mussolini: all that pomp about the Roman Empire while squads of Blackshirts bashed heads in the streets to keep people terrified and in line. Hitler wrapped his genocidal sadism in pseudo-science, fake grievances, and grand promises of ‘racial purity'...the point was never a coherent plan beyond expansion and domination.

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22. piva00 ◴[] No.44531729{3}[source]
> I don’t know of any ideologies whose ends are simply violence. Fascism is definitely not one of them.

You don't know much about the EU nor about fascism, why do you feel the need to opine on both while clearly showing you have no idea what you are talking about.

Educate yourself, it will make you a better person :)

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23. piva00 ◴[] No.44531785{5}[source]
Are you trying to have a debate on what the presupposed end of an ideology such as fascism is by the stated goals of fascists or do you prefer the empirical way it devolves into the inevitable end?

I'd appreciate if you don't use a throwaway account for that though, I like to interact with people showing true colours, not hiding cowardly.

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24. piva00 ◴[] No.44531969{7}[source]
Just tell me that "more open minded" doesn't rhyme with "more open to fascist rhetoric" and we can have a conversation.
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25. Tadpole9181 ◴[] No.44532054{7}[source]
Did you just admit to ban evasion?
26. MSFT_Edging ◴[] No.44532102{4}[source]
> You subbed in "ends" for "purpose to is to validate." They're different. Without the seduction of violence and racism, fascism is a much less convincing argument.

Yeah I generally meant that there are people who desire violence. Their targets of choice vary, be it along boundaries of race, sex, etc.

Fascism uses this reactionary tendency to amass a following. It's a weapon that is wielded inconsistently. Many Homosexuals were part of the early brown shirts. Hitler publicly said their sexuality wasn't opposed to Nazism.

These brownshirts would attack union meetings, violently break strikes, and generally act as an unofficial arm of violence for the Nazis. Once power had been gained, and enemies squashed, there was now an issue with their sexuality and the Nazi party acted as they are to do.

There's no logic behind the scapegoat. It's fluid and can change on a whim to suit the emotional reactions of whoever they're trying to garner support from.

27. MSFT_Edging ◴[] No.44532107{5}[source]
I think you should follow your leader.
28. healsdata ◴[] No.44532169[source]
<citation needed>
29. bigyabai ◴[] No.44532805{3}[source]
Today is probably a good day for you to learn the definition of fascism, then. The axe in the fasces isn't a symbol of cutting firewood.
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30. giingyui ◴[] No.44532917{4}[source]
I suppose the sword in the hand of the lion of the coat of arms of Finland is for cutting elk meat.
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31. marcusverus ◴[] No.44532960[source]
A good rule of thumb: If your theory of mind for literally anyone is "they just want to hurt people", you are repeating propaganda.
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32. bigyabai ◴[] No.44533036{5}[source]
It's not a hatchet, you can go Google what it looks like in <10 seconds. It's a halberd, a polearm used for harassing people at-range.

Plus, even if it was a symbolic hatchet, I don't think many civilians would like the notion of their government mutilating them and feeding them to a fire.

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33. giingyui ◴[] No.44533068{6}[source]
It’s a sword. And a sword is using for fighting.

“The coat of arms of Finland is a crowned lion on a red field, the right foreleg replaced with an armoured human arm brandishing a sword, trampling on a sabre with the hindpaws.”

But if it can be symbolic then the axe of the fasces (which, mind you, is a symbol of the Roman Empire, and not a fascist invention) is also symbolic.

34. nixosbestos ◴[] No.44536081{3}[source]
So naive.
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35. DaSHacka ◴[] No.44539375{4}[source]
I think its more naive to think everyone who disagrees with you politically is ontologically evil.
36. MSFT_Edging ◴[] No.44541217{3}[source]
A core aspect of fascism is finding as scapegoat to blame societal ills on in order to avoid introspection of said society. The scapegoat is in danger in this regard.

Combined with a strong nationalistic and militaristic tendencies, this combination doesn't end in a way other than violence against the scapegoat.

Because fascism is incoherent, there's little to be gained from arguing with their adherents.

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37. marcusverus ◴[] No.44551816{4}[source]
This reply is incoherent.