←back to thread

770 points ananddtyagi | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.408s | source
Show context
moneywaters ◴[] No.44487086[source]
I’ve been toying with a concept inspired by Apple’s Find My network: Imagine a decentralized, delay-tolerant messaging system where messages hop device-to-device (e.g., via Bluetooth, UWB, Wi-Fi Direct), similar to how “Find My” relays location via nearby iPhones.

Now add a twist: • Senders pay a small fee to send a message. • Relaying devices earn a micro-payment (could be tokens, sats, etc.) for carrying the message one hop further. • End-to-end encrypted, fully decentralized, optionally anonymous.

Basically, a “postal network” built on people’s phones, without needing a traditional internet connection. Works best in areas with patchy or no internet, or under censorship.

Obvious challenges: • Latency and reliability (it’s not real-time). • Abuse/spam prevention. • Power consumption and user opt-in. • Viable incentive structures.

What do you think? Is this viable? Any real-world use cases where this might be actually useful — or is it just a neat academic toy?

replies(42): >>44487111 #>>44487126 #>>44487137 #>>44487162 #>>44487174 #>>44487219 #>>44487306 #>>44487401 #>>44487416 #>>44487875 #>>44487918 #>>44487994 #>>44488076 #>>44488351 #>>44488419 #>>44488612 #>>44488911 #>>44488986 #>>44489072 #>>44489735 #>>44489867 #>>44489897 #>>44489908 #>>44490304 #>>44490306 #>>44490405 #>>44490521 #>>44490567 #>>44490746 #>>44491021 #>>44491277 #>>44491800 #>>44491846 #>>44492206 #>>44492341 #>>44493200 #>>44493256 #>>44494750 #>>44494963 #>>44499945 #>>44515267 #>>44523816 #
1. myself248 ◴[] No.44489897[source]
In a way, the Althea wireless network already does this, but it looks like a more conventional wireless ISP in some ways. If you have upstream connectivity that you provide to a downstream customer, you earn a cut. If you have access to a mountaintop or something and run a repeater that suddenly brings a lot of nodes better connectivity, you earn a cut.

Personally, I've always been surprised that traditional cellular networks didn't try to incentivize femtocell placement by awarding compensatory minutes or megs or something, to the operator of the serving femtocell. Imagine someone with an apartment over the old bakery downtown where the historical district has made it difficult to place normal towers, so they get a femtocell for their own usage. But if it carries other customers' traffic, they'd get kickbacks and incentive to place it near the window where it has the best view of the shopping area below. Suddenly they're working on RF optimization without even knowing it.

In both cases, you have an existing payment expectation that you're just piggybacking on. People already pay their ISP for connectivity, so they expect to pay Althea, and the distribution of money after that is a detail. People already pay their cellco for service, and if some of that kicks back to other customers, that's a detail.

I think your idea has legs, if you can solve the onboarding and payment expectation. There's also a critical-mass problem that Apple solved with Find My by just force-installing it on every device without consent, and you can't do that. So people will only run your software if they:

A) know about it

B) are in a place with poor enough connectivity that it's needed

C) are in a place with enough user density that it's worthwhile

D) perceive that it doesn't unduly kill their battery while in a place that also might not have a lot of opportunities to charge

That's a mighty tricky combination, especially the overlap between B and C. The only setting I can imagine is Burning Man. But micropayments directly conflict with the gifting and decommodification principles.

replies(1): >>44491406 #
2. immibis ◴[] No.44491406[source]
I think they want to run reliable networks. They might be legally required to run reliable networks. Obviously, spotty coverage in some places can't be avoided, but designing their network for exclusively spotty coverage might not be a good idea.

Remember that network operators plan their frequency allocations so that base stations on the same frequency don't also overlap in space. How would you ensure this with random femtocells? The frequency allocation plan for a femtocell relies on it having a very small area of coverage and being far away from others, so that it doesn't matter if they all use the same frequency.

Cell networks aren't plug-and-play YOLO networks like wifi - they're properly engineered stuff.

Now, they could absolutely form a contract with a customer to put a proper base station in their apartment window - according to the locations and frequencies that best fulfill the needs of the network. Not just "buy one of these and plug it in for a discount" but "we'll pay you ten times over to let us fill a corner of your apartment with big metal boxes, and enter for maintenance with 24 hours notice". Evidently this is a lot of hassle compared to getting permission to put them on roofs, so they don't do it.

I assume this Althea network does something similar but with a reversed order of operations: first someone sets up a network repeater, then someone at Althea HQ figures out how much value they're providing to the network. If it's fully automated, it would run into the same problems as Helium, like people creating fake nodes to carry fake traffic (if nothing else, getting a discount on their real traffic by pretending it passed through 100 of their own nodes before reaching someone else's node).